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Astral Sphere?

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All information discussed is based on my own readings, and current understandings. Therefore differences in opinions, or deviation from original sources may occur. Should anyone have further reading on a topic, please do inform me.

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 So, in a lot of my readings I've seen people talk about the astral. Astral planes, astral sphere, astral projection, astral etc. For the longest time, I believed in it fully. Spirit energy after would have its own circulation and currents, much like the atmosphere, or the ionosphere, or other layers like that. 

It makes sense when you think about it, I would assume. (Though I can see why many people wouldn't believe in it, as well.)

The problem is, that I've never felt connected to the astral sphere. All the new age-y stuff has never worked for me, and has in fact just made me more apt to dismiss it. After all, if can't experience it, then truly, I can never be sure of its existence. It can't be proven by me until I experience it. 

Yes, I could accept heresay and people's experiences, but I could also do the same with people claiming the Zebulons are watching them, and have tweaked their genetic codes in order to make humans more docile, in order to breed us as a race of organic biosuits. 

That's not to say that either side is crazy in that example, but from someone who can't interact with it, that sort of comparison is not too far off.

So for the longest time, I just put the astral sphere theories to the side, and figured I'd come back to that when I either experienced a change, or when new information would help update old theories. 

So after reading a bunch of random articles and ideas, I came across both the idea of the Noosphere and Infosphere. 

The Noosphere is, perhaps to some, nearly analogous to the astral sphere, in that the Noosphere is the realm of human thought and evolution. The Noosphere is the the compound collection of human thought. Think of it as the Collective Unconscious, or the Metaverse to use Persona's terminology, which is actually a very good example of the Noosphere. In this sphere, reality is defined by human thought. 

It brings to mind the classic philosophy teaser; if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is observing it, does it truly make a sound?

At first glance, you would say, "Yes, Fenrir, it does. Just because I can't hear it doesn't stop it from hitting the ground and making a noise." Which is entirely logical, and correct.

But when you alter your cognition, your perception, of the question , the teaser takes on a whole new level. 

If I am not around to hear it, can I ever be 100% certain that it made a noise? Because if we record it, then we are still observing, and therefore hearing it. We trust in our thoughts of order to say, that it does, indeed, make a noise. So because we believe it to make noise, it does.

A more fleshed out example would be a conversation between a devout Christian, and an atheist. Both believe in their respective religions. A friend of both of them succeeds in getting a job after an interview. The Christian states, "God blessed them, and let them get the job! I'm so happy for them!" While the atheist refutes, "No, they got the job on their own merits! God had nothing to do with it, and it's offensive to say they didn't do it on their own! I am happy for them because they did it on their own!" 

Now in that example, both parties are glad for their friend because they got the job they wanted. But to the Christian, their perception of reality, combined with the faith of their belief system makes them see the world through the lens of their faith in God. "Because God created everything, he has absolute power. And because my friend got the job, then God must have let them get it. God has blessed them with the skills needed to get the job, the ability to get through the interview and impress the interviewer, and then get the job, means that God gave them the job!" 

The cognition at play here therefore reaffirms the belief in God, because the evidence points to that, based on the perception of God existing.

Now, the atheist on the other hand has the religious belief system of not believing in a greater power (which is still a religious belief as it cannot be proved by the scientific method) uses the lens of disbelief to state that God has no hand in this situation. "My friend has the skills they need to get the job by their own merit. They worked for them, they did the work, and they got through the interview on their own, with no outside interference. To imply otherwise is to diminish the success they worked for." Because of this perspective the atheist says that there was no outside forces influencing the situation, and that by believing that God had a hand in it is offensive, and implies the friend couldn't get the job unless God stepped in.

To which the third friend states, "I'm just glad I got the job, I was lucky." 

In these examples the reality of the situation is different based on how the person perceives their personal reality. How their cognition affects the world around them.

The Noosphere is created by human awareness, and in turn affects human awareness. This feedback loop will, theoretically, reach a point know as the Omega Point, ideologically similar to the idea of AI Singularity, but in essence very different.

The Omega Point implies the idea that because the Noosphere represents the Collective Unconscious, and the force of intellectual evolution, then this feedback loop will progress at exponential rates to evolve human thought, and therefore itself. Eventually this growth will begin to become so focused that all consciousness will become one; the Omega Point. The amalgamation of all consciousness into a singular consciousness. A singular entity. All knowing, and all powerful. 

By this being existing, it would be able to observe its own creation, therefore confirming its own existence, and knowing all the universe in the process (hypothetically), essentially becoming God for all intents and purposes. For one who knows all, and is all powerful, is in essence divine, or at least would seem that way to anything else that met it. And perhaps it decided to create a new world in which to exist, thus continuing the cycle.

Think of it in terms of our societal and technological growth. We've grown far more advanced so fast. We've accelerated from simple radios, and steam engines to what we have today, in just a century, compared to the time it took for society to reach that point, that is inhumanly fast. So one could say that the Noosphere is in effect, and is getting more powerful every passing day.

The Infosphere on the other hand is the realm of Information. Not just what is known, the Infosphere is where all knowledge resides. What is known, what is unknown, what might be known, and what can never be known all exist in one sphere, but information by itself has no drive, no way of changing itself, or creating more information. Thus Inforgs are the creatures of the Infosphere, beings of matter, energy, and raw information. By becoming self-actualizing, this information, now embodied, it subjected to change by its very existence, therefor creating new information to be stored in the Infosphere, thus expanding it.

Now someone might ask, "Well, Fenrir, you literally said just a paragraph up from this, that the Infosphere contains all information that can ever exist. So why would it ever need to add new information?" 

To which I would reply, "Good question."

Now, the answer is not simple, not in the slightest, and does imply a few paradoxes, but in the field of raw information, that seems called for, as we as humans cannot understand the idea of things we don't know we don't know. 

Now, imagine, the Infosphere contains all information, past, present, and future. But for it to be contained as an event that must occur, because it has already been written as occurred, then something must happen to make it thus. Therefore, acts must be taken, by creating Inforgs the Infosphere has created a way to ensure that its information will always be accurate. 

Simply; the Infosphere creates Inforgs to make sure what it knows will happen, will happen.

Some theorize that humans themselves are in fact Inforgs. We are matter (biosphere), we are energy (noosphere), and we are information (infosphere). We do fit the categories for an Inforg, but that does not necessarily make us Inforgs, after all, do we originate from the Infosphere, or are we simply the result of some other power play that the Infosphere knows about, and uses along with its Inforgs? Who can know?

The Infosphere can. :Cool:

 

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A very interesting, but complex post. First of all, it's natural to believe things only if you've experienced them yourself. If I'm confronted with a unknown or strange belief, I'd always ask which personal experiences made it come about and if there would be a sound explanation or theory behind. For my own experiences, I consequently design own theories.
As for your example with the person getting the job: I also believe that reality is different for everyone. If I'd have been the person getting the job, I'd have thanked both friends, and maybe would have stated that I don't think God had a hand in this, but still appreciate the congratulation.
I don't fully understand the concepts of Noosphere and Infosphere at this time. I think I'm too tired to get it right now. However they seem to be very... human centred. That's something I don't like. I just don't think that humans have such extraordinary meaning to this universe, and I tend to deny any theory or religion which would put them in an extraordinary position.

The "Omega Point" is some interesting concept though... would it explain the emergence of our physical universe, I wonder?

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@Amber

As an incredibly self-aware person who loves metaphysics, I, unfortunately, internalized the realization that I can never be 100% sure that anything outside of me even exists. For all I know I could be the only real thing in the entire universe. I don't believe that, but if I'm being 100% honest, I can't say I know without a doubt that's false.

Making one's own theories is perhaps the best one can do, because to accept someone else's theories as complete truth would be stating that you have complete faith in them, and the veracity of their own experiences.

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It's actually known as Consensual Reality. That the manner in which one perceives the universe, is, at the very least, how the universe operates. As I attempted to explain above. Though the consensual reality is tempered by the fact that since many, many people exist, there has to be some sort of baseline reality upon which to perceive, otherwise we'd exist in an ideological void, or that each reality must essentially come together as a consensus in order for each of us to be able to exist together. The consensus then is the universe we exist in and perceive. 

Now there are two major belief systems in the Consensual Reality theory. You have the idealists who say that reality is completely different for each person, whereas the materialists state that there is one reality, but each individual observer creates a different interpretation of it, which affects their personal reality.

Similar is Transcendent Idealism. The belief that something-in-itself is not defined by its own existence, but actually by the way it is perceived by observers. That we, as humans, cannot fully know something, and therefore can only perceive it as we can understand, and by that lack of complete understanding we cannot see something for what it truly is, only what we believe it to be, based on our understanding. 

Really, though they are separate, these two theories mesh rather well together (With a little twisting, I will admit) And these people would be of the mind, that the tree can only make a sound if someone observes it making that sound, otherwise it's not part of their reality.

Many people do not like the idea of a consensual reality, especially gnostic atheists, from my personal experiences. The idea that perception alters reality, and that individually every person is in complete control of their own universe, isn't something that can be easily accepted. 

Philosophical Realism is the opposite of both of those theories; that the universe is completely separate from our perception of it. They are the party that would say that, yes, the tree makes a noise, without a doubt.

When looking at the Consensual Reality (or Consensus Reality) it's almost like an unspoken, unknowable agreement between each of us and the reality we exist in. We all add our parts to it. Each of our realities merge together, and changes to be the closest it'll get to what we all believe, as a whole.

This theory implies that someone who is completely insane, is simply so far removed from the Consensus that their reality, is in fact, entirely different. The severity of this difference is how insane they are. Someone who believes themselves to be a glass of orange juice, is so removed that they truly believe that delusion, and to them, it is as much reality as ours is to us. 

Though, if true, then their realities would actually do far more damage to the rest of reality, should they make others believe as they do.

I, personally, believe in a narrativistic consensual reality. That we each have our own story, and it's woven together to make the larger story of our world, which is then woven to make the story of our universe, which will essentially create the story from the beginning creating a loop of ever growing storytelling.

If you want some further reading on the subject, a good media example would be either Persona 5, or the tabletop role-playing game Mage The Ascension. But not Mage The Awakening. (Personally I despise Mage The Awakening.) But the original World Of Darkness is a good example of the idea of Consensual Reality at play, and it even throws the monkey wrench of the fact that it could in fact be wrong into the works.)

On the topic of the World Of Darkness, Changeling the Dreaming is something that has been considered a very good example of Otherkin. Which I would say is pretty accurate. As well as the Chronicles of Darkness's Beast The Primordial, though it's much more horror, but it definitely spoke very deeply to me.

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I can understand why you'd feel that way, and I used to feel that way myself.

Now, I have fully embraced the anthropocentrism of it, because in the end, we may believe we aren't human (personal reality) but we are, unfortunately for some, indeed human (consensual reality.) Though I may be a bit biased, as I positively love being human. I think for all the suffering there is so much beauty and joy to be had as a human, and I can learn and change as long as I live. Though I am aware that I am not only human, but more than that, simply choosing to be human for the time being, it doesn't diminish my absolute, and unconditional love for humanity. Agape, if you will, rapture at the human experience.

Otherkin-ness it perhaps a very good example of Consensual Reality, as each of us believes differently, and together as a group create a semi-cohesive framework to place those beliefs on. Making each Otherkin being the personal reality, and the larger Otherkin community becoming the consensual reality. 

Then it also occurs on a larger scale as well. Each belief system, Otherkin included, being a personal reality, is unable to be proven in context of the larger universe, the consensual reality.

So while most of us believe us to not be entirely human, that is something that, in the end, cannot be definitively proven, and is a belief system we have, which colors and shapes how we perceive the rest of our reality. This is actually a very good example of the statements I'm making.

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Now to tie this all back to the Noosphere and the Infosphere, the Noosphere would be both the perception of each of those personal realities, and the perception of consensual reality.

The Infosphere would be the information contained and created by each of those personal realities, as well as the medium in which those realities become the consensus.

In essence, the Noosphere is what is perceived in though, and the Infosphere is what is known in belief. 

Combine the geosphere (matter), the biosphere (Life), the Noosphere (thought) and finally the Infosphere (knowing and belief) you create a fully realized, and material world that is changeable and able to evolve, and make new things. 

And as humans we are, we can be more by our beliefs, as we, Otherkin, have learned. 

I know that some would say, "Fenrir! This isn't just a belief! I know it's real!" 

I'm not saying that it isn't real to those who experience it, but as a consensus we must concede the point that we are humans, and in that knowing we can believe in far more. Being human gives us that option, which is why I have accepted the anthropocentrism. 

As humans we will always put humans as the center of our existence, be it in disdain, or admiration, but still a center point. And no matter what we believe, in the end it is our personal reality. 

In some ways, it's actually truly freeing. You can believe whatever you want, and as long as you do, it is the truth, and is the truth of reality, to you while the person next to you believes something entirely different.

In that we can all at least have something in common, we are all human, and also, we all are able to see the universe however we believe it to be.

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The Omega Point is definitely an interesting topic, and if it were to occur, then by all accounts, then yes, it could have created the universe we exist in, whether in some eternal chain of new Omega Points creating the next, or as a self sustaining paradox in which it loops back around and by observation creates its own personal reality, which would be the reality we create it in eventually. In and of itself a personal reality and consensual reality interplay.

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It's all very fascinating, and actually a delight to think about. 

So many questions, so many answers, and to think of all the questions we haven't even thought to ask yet. Makes me so curious! :Attentive:

 

Edited by KnightFenrirWulfhart

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Thanks for your answer, this is really interesting... :squintderg:

3 hours ago, KnightFenrirWulfhart said:

I can never be 100% sure that anything outside of me even exists

Yes, I know what you mean. This leads to the philosohical concept of Solipism...

Your idea of "consensual reality" would relate to what I call a superposition of mindscapes. Regardless of how we call the philosophical concept, I would currently agree to the idea that (in your example) the tree can only make a sound if there is at least one conscious observer (any living being and any way of observation will do), otherwise the tree itself doesn't exist. The idea that "perception alters reality" (or, to this end, observation alters reality), is backed by quantum physics and I've no problem accepting that. The example you made about someone believing to be a glass of orange juice (extreme, but let's stick to it) actually opens the question why our reality is so stable. I can only relate this to the possibility that each individual mind has only a negligible influence on the superposition which makes up the physically observable reality, but I'm still wondering about that; there should at least be some measurable effect. I find the idea of "narrativistic consensual reality" very interesting... thanks for the literature recommendations! It's only I've got too many things to explore already... maybe I'll come back to them later.

I notice you're mentioning the statement "we are all human" several times. I've stumbled across this before here on Kinmunity, and found that people oftentimes just mean "we all have human bodies". When it comes to me, I can only agree to the latter statement. If you state that being human - and consequently having human brains and thought processes - is the only reason that allows us to see the universe how we describe it, I would disagree because that contradicts my feeling. I feel that I can look at the physical reality from the outside (from the astral plane, to come back to this) originally because, as a Dragon, I have access to non-human thought processes. I can not prove this, it's just how I feel and I can't help it (I've been a dragon since 25+ years). Most humans I know would not even remotely be able to think like this or even understand this. I don't want to say it's impossible: philosophers can do that. But to me, thinking like this feels like connecting to a consicousness which I can't help but describe as "draconic" at the moment. I wonder.. do you think that it's only your human brain which allows you to think like you do - doesn't you being Fenrir add another level to this?

Finally, I find it interesting to think about an "Omega Point"-like feedback loop to have created the physical reality. However, I wonder how it could lead to a stable construct... I'll need to think about that.

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@AmberI'm glad you think so~!

Yeah, Solipsism is an interesting, albeit potentially depressing, idea to work with. And though, it does make an awful lot of sense when analyzed, it has the major potential to be abused, which does make it dangerous. But like all philosophical theories it's unable to be be proven, nor disproven. 

The orange juice example, while extreme, is actually a real thing. My mother had a friend when she was young who went off the deep end, and after some bad acid didn't come back down. So it's a secondhand example, not meant to make fun of it, but to show, an example I am personally aware of, how one's personal reality can differ so far from the consensus we experience.

Quantum Mechanics is actually very interesting to me as well, and it definitely does point out some similarities to these theories.

That actually is an important observation. What I've found are the two most likely situations that would explain that would be. That there is some baseline reality upon which our consensus is draped, something that does exist separate from us, and we only color in the lines with our beliefs, hence why we don't seem to have control over reality.

The other is the idea that all of our individual realities come together and it becomes a majority rules type situation. All the common traits mesh together, creating the framework, while all the conflicting ideas cancel each other out. Kinda like the Big Bang with matter and antimatter. The reality that we live in is the result of slightly more perception of what is currently reality versus what was rejected. Then we flavor our own sections with cognition, and while it might not have enough power on its own, the more others believe then the more the consensus would change. 

It could have happened before, if true, when we turned to science and facts, the reality of the past began to conform to our current standards, thus allowing us to perceive the past events through the lens of what we know now. Though since we, ourselves, didn't perceive it, we cannot know for sure that reality as we know it is in fact what it seems.

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I just want to preface this next response with the following; I do not seek to invalidate anyone's self beliefs and personal realities, this is simply a statement from a philosophical point of view. Nor am I here to change anyone's minds.

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The great thing about the consensual reality theory, is that you can believe totally different than that. You can believe that as you will, but my personal reality is that even though we may be more than human, we are still, though, humans. To me, that's something that cannot be denied logically. Whereas to you, you believe that that's not true.

We are at an impasse between the two of us, but from a larger perception, by other humans as a whole, we are both, indeed, human, A case of personal versus consensual.

Now can I say you are wrong by having your belief system? Not at all, as I cannot perceive your reality, and you cannot perceive mine. We can attempt to glimpse each other's realities as we are now, by discussion, and explanation. An interchange between thought and information, would you not say? Noosphere and Infosphere intermingling. 

The thing about a non-human thought process is that by thinking that way, one could say, you are in fact thinking in a human thought process. We can communicate complex ideas to one another, and achieve understanding, which could be attributed to being human. 

As you stated, you disbelieve that, whereas I believe that. Your perception has given you access to beliefs and experiences that have bolstered and reinforced your personal beliefs, therefore solidifying your personal reality against outside change.

While, I, on the other hand, believe that since we exist as humans, we must accept that even if it's not completely human, we are still human though. That even if one is reincarnated, in this life you are a human, and to deny that would be the same as denying any of your kintypes.

Now, I'm not saying you have to agree with me, as that would be proselytizing, which I don't want to take part in.

Perhaps that very reason is why I believe as I do. I don't identify as Fenrir. I identify with Fenrir. I know that I am not Fenrir, I am me. I take the name Fenrir out of symbolic resonance, and respect for the myth of Fenrir.

Logically I know that I am human, even if I believe I am also a god. In this life I am a human, and therefore I must accept that, otherwise the lessons, and stories of this life will not be true, and would not be worthy to add to my Truth. 

As a being formed from the chaos of thought, belief, learning, and information intermingling, yet embodied in this life as a human, I feel to deny that aspect of myself would be tantamount to betrayal of my Truth. I am human, therefore I must be human for a reason. This life is so very important to me, and I must live it to its fullest extent. I must tell the story of the human who was born Thomas, but has taken the title Fenrir. I must do all I can to further my story to it's next chapter. And that brings me so much joy, and purpose.

But that's just me! :GrinandWiggle:

Perhaps it already has, and that perception is either the baseline reality, or perhaps since it is our own eventual creation, it is already the consensual reality that created it. Who knows? 

But it sure is fun to try to figure it out! 

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Don't worry, it's all right! The "I'm not a human, but rather a dragon in a human body" stuff is really just my attitude. Saying "I'm a human now, but I'm also something else" is not even too different from that at the end of the day. I'm with you in such that I enjoy my human life here quite a lot. Obviously it enables me to use human thought processes and communictaion. That's great since otherwise we wouldn't have met, for example :biggrinderg:

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