RANT: Why Is Disbelieving Treated As Unenlightenment? - Loremaster's Tome - Kinmunity Jump to content

RANT: Why Is Disbelieving Treated As Unenlightenment?

If you can't handle people judging others, or disbelieving others, then you shouldn't read the following.

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I spent a long time thinking about how to word this thread, it's been a while coming, and I literally just spent 30 minutes staring at a blank text input thinking up how to word this so I don't seem like a jackass, but then that very thought became the catalyst for what I was feeling.

If you don't automatically believe everything everyone else says, you're suddenly treated like you're this inferiorbarbaric, and badly judgmental person.  I lurk, and read, and lurk some more, compiling information, and judging it based on what is presented.

I don't respond to many things because I do not believe in what's behind them. Unfortunately, that's creating an atmosphere around me that I cannot speak my mind, or how I feel in case I am rude, or marked a troll and banned. I am afraid to even make any debates or counterpoints out of fear of being banned for stating an opinion, even in this subforum. And it makes it so I can't ask questions, I can't try to figure it out, because if I say anything about my beliefs then the passive aggressive aura comes into play, this subconscious display of superiority over someone who's beliefs are contrary to the popular, where obviously they can't understand it, they aren't open enough, or they aren't kind enough. 

I am not going around telling people that they can't believe what they believe, but there seems to be this prevalent attitude that one cannot disbelieve someone because that would make you a hypocrite, or that you can't tell someone who they are. 

I believe that one of the reasons the community as a whole is ridiculed is because anyone could claim something really weird and outlandish, and well, if you judge them you have no right to do so, because you can't tell them what they are and are not, and anyone who judges anyone is this backwards person who just doesn't see the light yet.

I don't believe in mean-spirited trolling, or harassment, but I understand why many people don't accept us. And I can't fathom how others don't see it. Perhaps it ties in with many of my other opinions, many of which others will claim are harmful or misguided. Or something along those lines. Maybe it's because many people just use really vague theories about something, and then use those vague, and ill-defined theories to justify something that, to me, seems completely illogical. Maybe it's because for all my spirituality, I also believe in the psychological explanations behind what we experience. Sure, some would claim my beliefs are the same way, and guess what, I don't care! I know me enough to be secure in my beliefs. If they question me, I'll answer them honestly, and if they don't believe me, well then, that's that, doesn't mean I have to dislike them, or that they just wouldn't get it.

I've been friends with people who have incompatible beliefs in contrast to mine. And we used to discuss it, because we all thought it was fun, and built communication. But in the Otherkin community, there's this vibe given off that you must police what is said, because it could be hurtful. I think that attitude is ruining social interactions as a whole, as well as growth, and emotional maturity among those who partake in this misguided form of thought control.

If you can't handle someone voicing their opinion that "you're wrong" or that that's delusional, then well, I don't believe you've grown up fully yet. If your beliefs are so ingrained, and central to your being, then others disbelieving your claims shouldn't matter, as it's not going to change, and claiming its so hateful is not only childish, it's downright wrong to claim so. Especially on the internet. The internet is NO ONES safe place, and if you think it should be, then, unpopular opinion, you need to get off of it, because you're going to be in for a sore awakening.

Tell me why not being open minded to the point of having one's brain fall out is a bad thing? Why is doubting the veracity of others claims suddenly considered a sign of the unenlightened.

Tell me why, with that attitude, any line should be drawn?

When does the line end? When does it start? Why is it such a bad thing to have in the first place then?

Tell me, because I sure as hell don't get it.

Addendum:

I absolutely hate when Otherkin, Fictionkin, and especially Therians (I've noticed it the most in Therians) talk shit about Humans. Or act like humans are all evil. Like, sorry, you might not like it, you might not agree with it, but that doesn't change the fact that you are human. You might not wish it to be so, but it is the truth. Scientifically speaking, biologically speaking, neurologically speaking it's the truth. And by denying that truth, you are stunting your own growth as a person. And just because you are human doesn't mean your beliefs have to change. So your past life wasn't human, okay, so in a different world you're not human, sure, but in this one, as unfortunate as it may be, you are human, and there's nothing wrong with that.

And I will die on this slope, but MOST minors these days who join this community are misguided, peer pressured into it, or are doing it for attention, or affection.

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This blog post shouldn't be so difficult to write, actually... I personally think we don't need to believe in everything others say, just as we don't need to agree about everything. On the contrary, I think a community lives from members having different opinions and beliefs, and also stating those. The ability to handle such different opinions and beliefs without going against each other is what makes a community strong. If someone can't believe in something  or someone else's belief, and states this in a polite and reasonable way without being offensive, that can't be a problem; it shouldn't be understood to be offensive, but if possible be taken as a positive criticism.

Believing in everything can obviously be dangerous; it's much more safe and healty to question what others tell and make an educated judgement about if you want to believe it or not. Actually you should always be able to state that you have trouble to believe in something or someone, as long as you state your reasons that's fair and helpful. When this happens everybody should still be able to talk to each other. But I know I'm describing an ideal world. In reality, we can only try to get as close to this as possible.

My absolute and final line is when beliefs are misused to justify hurting or control others, physically or mentally, or going against the law. I will stand up against such beliefs if I'm aware enough to recognize them; I'm not perfect and I'm not a lawyer, so sometimes I might not realize things at once. If a belief doesn't make sense to me although I try to understand, I may also not keep up with it. But I don't have problems with people believing in things that don't make sense to me, or even doing such things; they might make sense to them and after all, they're free to believe in.

When it comes to the last paragraph, I think it should be allowed to criticise or peacefully oppose what human society is doing. I have issued such crisicism quite harshly myself, knowing perfectly well that I'm myself part of this society right now. If my ranting should ever cross the line, I'd very much appreciate you telling me... However I think by "talking shit about" you mean general unreasonable statements, so that's something else.

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I wholeheartedly agree with you Knight, we should not all be obligated to believe everything someone says about their identity. I know I have a bit of an outlandish identity, however I don’t expect everyone to believe what I believe, and that is just fine, each to their own. Everyone can believe what they wish, and that’s totally okay! However I do have a problem when others lash out at me when I ask them something or disagree with their opinion and identity. I am always open to civil debate and discussion, and I will always be mature to any question, even if someone is trying to get a rouse out of me. The mindset that “We have to believe absolutely *everything* in the otherkin community” kind of misses the point of introspection and questioning in of itself honestly. I don’t think you are being a “jerk” or being “rude” when giving constructive criticism to an idea in the community that others believe. We all can believe what we want to believe, however that also means respecting when others don’t believe what you believe....

I think the fine line is crossed though when constructive grilling turns into aggressive grilling, and people are just being plain out ignorant and mean to others when doing so. As long as that doesn’t happen then things should be okay!... ^.=.^

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7 hours ago, Amber said:

This blog post shouldn't be so difficult to write, actually... I personally think we don't need to believe in everything others say, just as we don't need to agree about everything. On the contrary, I think a community lives from members having different opinions and beliefs, and also stating those. The ability to handle such different opinions and beliefs without going against each other is what makes a community strong. If someone can't believe in something  or someone else's belief, and states this in a polite and reasonable way without being offensive, that can't be a problem; it shouldn't be understood to be offensive, but if possible be taken as a positive criticism.

Believing in everything can obviously be dangerous; it's much more safe and healty to question what others tell and make an educated judgement about if you want to believe it or not. Actually you should always be able to state that you have trouble to believe in something or someone, as long as you state your reasons that's fair and helpful. When this happens everybody should still be able to talk to each other. But I know I'm describing an ideal world. In reality, we can only try to get as close to this as possible.

My absolute and final line is when beliefs are misused to justify hurting or control others, physically or mentally, or going against the law. I will stand up against such beliefs if I'm aware enough to recognize them; I'm not perfect and I'm not a lawyer, so sometimes I might not realize things at once. If a belief doesn't make sense to me although I try to understand, I may also not keep up with it. But I don't have problems with people believing in things that don't make sense to me, or even doing such things; they might make sense to them and after all, they're free to believe in.

When it comes to the last paragraph, I think it should be allowed to criticise or peacefully oppose what human society is doing. I have issued such crisicism quite harshly myself, knowing perfectly well that I'm myself part of this society right now. If my ranting should ever cross the line, I'd very much appreciate you telling me... However I think by "talking shit about" you mean general unreasonable statements, so that's something else.

Yeah, I was just pissed last night, and I decided to rant in my blog because I could just erase it. Honestly, Kinmunity is a lot better than a lot of other places, and this is more of a general complaint, than a specific one. 

I agree with most everything you've stated, I just feel like if I ever really ask any questions, critically, people act like I'm attacking them. Like, many people use really loose interpretations of theories to justify something, and if you ever bring up that, they suddenly get very, very aggressive. 

Yeah, and with the last part about people talking shit about humans, having qualms with current society is important to have. I have my, many, many, qualms with the current culture. But I hate when I see someone, usually a wolf if I'm being honest, starts going, "All humans are horrible. All humans should go extinct! I hate all humans!" That's what I have problems with. I see it a lot off this site, and I can't stand that attitude.

1 hour ago, LunastreDraconis said:

I wholeheartedly agree with you Knight, we should not all be obligated to believe everything someone says about their identity. I know I have a bit of an outlandish identity, however I don’t expect everyone to believe what I believe, and that is just fine, each to their own. Everyone can believe what they wish, and that’s totally okay! However I do have a problem when others lash out at me when I ask them something or disagree with their opinion and identity. I am always open to civil debate and discussion, and I will always be mature to any question, even if someone is trying to get a rouse out of me. The mindset that “We have to believe absolutely *everything* in the otherkin community” kind of misses the point of introspection and questioning in of itself honestly. I don’t think you are being a “jerk” or being “rude” when giving constructive criticism to an idea in the community that others believe. We all can believe what we want to believe, however that also means respecting when others don’t believe what you believe....

I think the fine line is crossed though when constructive grilling turns into aggressive grilling, and people are just being plain out ignorant and mean to others when doing so. As long as that doesn’t happen then things should be okay!... ^.=.^

That's exactly what I mean by not caring what others think. Like, yes, I don't understand much of your belief structure, but you are a nice person, and you don't force your beliefs on others.

Exactly! Like I know my belief structure is both confusing, and convoluted, but if someone asked me questions, even with anger, I would still answer them to the best of my ability, because getting angry at someone because they either don't believe in your beliefs, or they don't understand, is NEVER going to help the situation.

I know this rant was very aggressive, but it was built up over time, and I couldn't keep it in. Like, I'm a naturally curious person, I like to understand, and I ask a lot of questions, and when I see either inconsistencies, or holes in a theory, I ask about it, because I want to know all that I can. Too many people, especially those who are younger and haven't grown any maturity yet, think this is a personal attack on them. That I hate them, and that I am specifically out to get them. Like, no offensive, kiddo, I don't even know you, and I don't really care, and this isn't helping at all. You need to grow up and get rid of that ego. The world doesn't revolve around you.

That's one of the reasons why I'm really skeptical about youngsters in the community is because many of them haven't matured enough to form that layer of self control to accept those facts. Again, like I've said before, Kinmunity is good with it, but too many kids are told in multiple areas, that they are allowed, if not encouraged to believe that they can twist and redefine words that have historical meanings, because they don't like it, and want it to fit them regardless if they don't fit it.

I'm very serious about everything being a case-by-case basis, but perhaps its because I went through that period where older, messed up people, were trying to brainwash the same ideas into me, and I ended up very fucked up because of it, I don't want these kids having that same mentality. 

There's so much more to the world than being marginalized. And that's it's okay to be "normal" that being Otherkin isn't all fun and games. And that by claiming the term, and twisting the meanings, and trying to harass others who point out the hypocrisy, these kids are actually spitting in the face of those who actually suffer from it.

I'm just very critical of this modern culture of identity politics, and alternative identities that have no basis in reality.

I'm glad no one reacted badly to this, as it wasn't my intention to start fights, but instead to scream into the void, I'm glad that both of y'all saw what I was trying to say. As I mentioned in my introduction thread, I can come across as prickly, but I'm genuinely trying to be understanding.

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Well your initial post didn't read offensive to me at all... I'm usually never assuming people want to be offensive unless it's obvious. If I even start to feel a bit offended (happens extremely rarely) I also start to think like "hang on.. did I really get this right?". I'm not easy to offend, haha.

I'm not generally skeptic about youngsters in the community, but I'm trying to understand. It's quite natural that you've got to learn lots of basic things when you're young of age, and as an old geezer I try to help to the best of my abilities. Course there are youngsters who really don't want to learn at a given time... in that case, I fear there's nothing much we can do.

I've also learned that some (not all) people easily feeling offended or even telling they "hate all humans" seem to have experienced extreme hardship and mistreatment from others, e.g. being abused, and seriously hurt. Oftentimes leading to PTSD. I'm talking about hardship on a level I never ever went through, and I don't even want to imagine for I'd be hurt by that alone. In that case, hate and the feeling of being threathened can be a defence mechanism. That's something I try to take into account. Of course it's still not OK to transfer that hate to others.

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To add to my original comment since I wrote it late at night and I was extremely tired, I am not usually skeptical of younger people in the otherkin community, since we are supposed to be an accepting group who are willing to help others, even if they are young. Younger kin need more support and advice now then ever, and I know when I was younger I never got that kind of support and advice about my identity, and it messed me up a bit. I know it can be hard to understand why younger kids can have outlandish identities, however in the end they are figuring out themselves, they need this support that we give to any other member, and in my eyes, shunning them away wouldn’t be right in my eyes. Not saying you’re opinion is wrong or bad! I’m just giving this input from my own beliefs and experiences! ^.=.^

Even still however, a lot of younger members are not ready to be questioned about their identities, or feel uncomfortable with grilling, criticism, and the like. Social anxiety and one’s own comfort zone ties into that, and sometimes questions aren’t welcome just yet, which I believe is just fine!...

Another thing however, I know that many people in the community and even in the world have been treated badly by people, have seen the terrible things that humans have done, and have a general distrust towards people. That anger shouldn’t be put on all humans, however I can see where it stems from, having PTSD myself...

While I know I have such an extraordinary identity, I don’t mind being questioned whatsoever, and I know to be civil and mature to any question. However there are many members in the community who are not ready for questioning, and I don’t put the blame on them one bit. Everyone’s comfort zone should always be respected when it comes to grilling!... ^.=.^

I’m not saying you’re wrong or invalid by any means! I’m just providing the extra input that I meant to put in the night I wrote that comment! Hallucinations can do that to you!... 

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I have to say that I completely agree with your rant. Obviously you want to remain considerate of others' identities and remain open-minded....but not so open-minded that your brain falls out. I hate how being skeptical or not agreeing with someone's beliefs automatically makes you a backwards and bigoted buffoon. I don't get it one bit. If we don't discuss things and expose ourselves to other ideas then how are we supposed to evolve and grow as people and move closer towards what is the Truth? If we can't have opinions or hold our own beliefs (having to agree with everyone else's kind of prevents you from having your own definitive ones) then how are we even supposed to function in life? Obviously we can never prove anything with 100% certainty but you have to act as though some things are true regardless of whether or not they can be definitively proven otherwise you have literally nothing to go off of in life. 

I feel like especially with a lot of the new and younger folks (although that's a generalization as there are some very intelligent and sincere young people around), their identities aren't genuinely held. It's more like a game, a fashion accessory (like they expect me to believe they've put enough thought and contemplation in to truly identify as twenty different things?), or roleplaying. I feel sorry for them that they feel the need to pretend to have a non-human identity to be adequately interesting and special enough but I don't think that blindly unquestioningly accepting them helps them either. I think giving them the opportunity to question their identities and why they have them is more beneficial as there's an underlying problem there that needs to be addressed and that is that there's no problem with being normal! Being normal is great! I sincerely wish I was. I feel like there's a huge pressure on kids these days to be unique and special and that being normal is looked down upon and that's partly why so many of them are driven to identities like these. 

Being surrounded by people who do nothing but validate you is dangerous. Of course, we should still treat each other kindly and respectfully but there's no reason why you can't do that whilst disagreeing! I'll fully admit I'm quite skeptical of fictionkin as I don't really understand it but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong on it. I'd love to have a discussion about it and have someone explain it more in-depth to me but I feel like I'd get crucified if I ever was to voice my skepticism on it.

As an example, I must admit that I was initially rather skeptical of you @LunastreDraconis but I am glad to say that now after hearing you talk about it and reading your posts and everything, I have been convinced that you are indeed genuine even if I do still have a few questions. And I personally don't see a problem with that. People change and our opinions change too. I know I also have a very unusual and outlandish identity but hold nothing against anyone for being skeptical of mine (frankly, if I was you people and someone claimed to be a real life vampire, I would be incredibly skeptical too) and I completely understand why they would be. So I welcome any questions anyone has about my identity and would hope that everyone else is the same. 

I don't like getting attacked just for questioning things and don't think that's the right way to have things. It's also incredibly unproductive. For example, let's say someone is very skeptical of my identity. If they are too afraid to question me then they're just going to remain totally unconvinced and unbelieving. But if they feel like they're allowed to question me then I then have the opportunity to quell any doubts they may have and explain things to me which could end up convincing them of the validity of my identity. Much better outcome if you ask me. So I feel like there isn't really anything to lose by encouraging questions and conversation.

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@Ambrose I totally concur with what you've said! I do think this modern internet culture has resulted in the demonization of being "normal." Like you said, I sure wish I was, it would make my life so much simpler. I wouldn't have to constantly repress inhuman urges and desires. I wouldn't have to worry about trying to talk to others in a way that makes sense. I wouldn't have to be plagued by the sense of not belonging. Like, that's just the Otherkin things negatively impacting me, combined with the other shit in my life, gosh golly gee wiz I would kill to have a "normal" life where I could just be happy and be like everyone else. That sounds like a dream come true for me. Like imagining being able to just interact with other humans like I wish I could would be so amazing. But alas, I cannot, and I must work towards it as a goal. I'll never be able to reach it, but it sure is an admirable goal. But these kids these days are being brainwashed by washed up millennials and Xers who think the world is actively a horrible place, and is so oppressive, that being "normal" is a sign of being the "Oppressor." Don't get me start though on that, I won't shut up, but I digress.

I will definitely say that there are youngsters who are so deep, and have genuinely looked into their hearts to figure themselves out. And let's be honest, with a critical eye, you can usually pick them out from the rest easily. But the others are using being "other" as a fashion statement. For lack of a better term, they're posers. They don't actually care about the pain, sadness, and sense of being apart with no way to get back that people who are "other" suffer, and not just Otherkin. 

Many people will pull the "But being young is the time to figure this stuff out." and yes, I will agree. But there's a different between claiming to be something without any actual depth, and questioning. I, wholeheartedly, think questioning is great! Like being honest enough to say that you're not sure is so admirable to me, because you're open to the possibility, but you want to learn more before you claim a label is very mature. Unfortunately these children aren't mature, think they know everything, and everyone else has to bow before them and their "reclaimed" meanings.

I feel so bad for the few teens who have already figure it out, because they are lumped in with the others. And these quirkquestors, as I'm going to call them, are making the genuine struggle these true teens are facing seem two dimensional and hollow.

I think this desire to be special is also contributing to this sense of "the world is out to get me, and anyone who doesn't agree is the BAD GUYS!" because they have to be right, and being wrong is something they can't comprehend, especially about identity. I know most of it stems from the fact that they want to be like the older generations, having a "righteous" cause to fight against. To go down int he history books are having fought for the "right" thing, and so they'll make up problems to fight for. This is very widespread in today's media, but you needn't look any further than Tumblrkin. They believe that they are the SOLE authority on what is good, and what is EVIL. Like I've mentioned before, I've been called a nazi for the stupidest shit, I've seen people called more evil than fucking HITLER for pointing out the hypocrisy behind many Tumblrkin. Like fucking WHAT?! 

And before anyone implies it, no it wasn't a troll. It was a 14 year old person with like 20 kintypes who then sent DEATH threats to them. The worst thing about it, is that we can't do anything without dealing with the cause of it, which is so much bigger than us.

(I remember when fandom culture was sweet, and loving, and creative, and supportive. Look at it now. It's hell compared to what it used to be.)

I definitely agree with you, certain opinions create the dread of talking about them, even if you would want to be wrong, because you feel like people will pull out the torches and pitchforks. Like especially Fictionkin. I'll be straight up, I don't believe in it, at least from a spiritual perspective. I can understand it from a COPING point of view, because someone CANNOT be someone else. It doesn't work that way, unless it's from a coping perspective. Fictional races or species I can understand because in the end you are still you. But I've never been given a well explained explanation of Fictionkin beyond "Well, Multiverse!" I think it's lazy and makes me roll my eyes because I know if I bring that up, it'll just turn into 🤬. Like get me to believe not try to guilt me or force me to believe, and I'll change my mind, but I can't say that because people'll assume I'm "invalidating" them. I don't believe in that term either, because it's such a loaded word, because as I've said before, if you are deriving your validation from others, then that is the problem here.

I've said it before elsewhere, and I'll say it until I die, being in any echo chamber of ideology will never be a good thing. It's always good to have someone you completely disagree with on many things as a close friend. It makes you  think about why you believe what you do. People asking me questions that made me pissed have, historically, been some of the most important questions to me. Even if I passionately disagree with the statements behind them, they have allowed me to know I disagree beyond the shadow of a doubt. You can't oppose something if you don't understand it.

 I'll probably be the first to admit that my belief structure is convoluted, complicated, and just plain bizarre, but I've accepted that some people will never accept me, and that's okay. I live for me and not for others, and as such, I don't feel the need to be defensive about it. Like if someone asked me about it, I'd do my utmost to explain it as well as I could, but I don't ever expect people to accept it, or even understand it. If they think I'm crazy, well, whatever, I don't care.

Like, you Ambrose, I don't understand the who vampire thing. I think, in my opinion, that it's probably a psychosomatic response created through some sort of symbolic connection to the myths of vampires (excluding the supernaturally aspects, as you've noted) that's creating a sort of feedback loop in you. Does that mean it's correct? Not at all, but as of right now that's my opinion. And with all opinions I'm open to having my mind changed, but some things are just too ingrained in me to be willing to change for others without some sort of proof. But you obviously believe in it, and my confusion isn't going to change that. It's the same logic behind other things as well.

I'm aware that I do love talking about myself, which is funny to realize now because as a teen I hated myself passionately, but I love when people ask me questions, I'll honestly answer pretty much any question as honestly as I can, because if people want to understand me then I feel flattered, and have my ego fluffed up, even if it's from a point of negativity. Like they took time to ask, they were thinking about me enough to do it. Even if it's just pure shit, I still get the ego boost because it's like, "I consumed your thoughts. You were inspired to be a jackass about it, but that means you felt something about it from me, which means.... I win."

@LunastreDraconis@Amber About the whole talking shit about humans thing, it doesn't matter to me about whether or not they had bad experiences, or have PTSD about it. They are grown ups, and they are making the choice to act on those feelings, and broadcast them. I have been hurt by certain groups of people before, mainly women, to the point where it's hard for me to trust them at all. I assume they're all out to use me and hurt me, but as a grown adult, I recognize that is a dangerous point of view, and totally inaccurate to generalize in that matter. I have the urge to default to that, but I make the choice to not let my past continue to hurt me, and acting on that ingrained feeling won't solve anything, just make it so I'm hurting more. So, yes, I feel bad for them, but I still judge them for it, and will never just let it go. That may come across as harsh, but I've dealt with people using those excuses to be cruel to me, and I will never tolerate that kind of behavior. It is rude, hateful, and completely uncalled for. 

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5 hours ago, KnightFenrirWulfhart said:

@Ambrose I totally concur with what you've said! I do think this modern internet culture has resulted in the demonization of being "normal." Like you said, I sure wish I was, it would make my life so much simpler. I wouldn't have to constantly repress inhuman urges and desires. I wouldn't have to worry about trying to talk to others in a way that makes sense. I wouldn't have to be plagued by the sense of not belonging. Like, that's just the Otherkin things negatively impacting me, combined with the other shit in my life, gosh golly gee wiz I would kill to have a "normal" life where I could just be happy and be like everyone else. That sounds like a dream come true for me. Like imagining being able to just interact with other humans like I wish I could would be so amazing. But alas, I cannot, and I must work towards it as a goal. I'll never be able to reach it, but it sure is an admirable goal. But these kids these days are being brainwashed by washed up millennials and Xers who think the world is actively a horrible place, and is so oppressive, that being "normal" is a sign of being the "Oppressor." Don't get me start though on that, I won't shut up, but I digress.

I feel exactly the same. I'd absolutely love to be normal and would do anything to be able to be. I'm thankful to have gotten to the point now where, after years of effort and hard work, I can put on a pretty convincing act of normality and can blend-in to an extent and easily befriend people (some people might even call my persona charismatic). But at the end of the day, it's only that--a mask, an act. There's still always that constant fear in the back of my mind of being "exposed" as the imposter I am. Of people seeing right through me and finding out the truth and then shunning me once more. And I hate that. I think a lot of the people wishing to be anything but normal don't really understand just how difficult a life it can be. And that a lot of them mistakenly think that normal equates to boring which just isn't true. You can be an incredibly interesting person but still be otherwise very normal! It's just so tragic that all these kids are being brought up to think that being normal is a bad thing. 
 

5 hours ago, KnightFenrirWulfhart said:

I definitely agree with you, certain opinions create the dread of talking about them, even if you would want to be wrong, because you feel like people will pull out the torches and pitchforks. Like especially Fictionkin. I'll be straight up, I don't believe in it, at least from a spiritual perspective. I can understand it from a COPING point of view, because someone CANNOT be someone else. It doesn't work that way, unless it's from a coping perspective. Fictional races or species I can understand because in the end you are still you. But I've never been given a well explained explanation of Fictionkin beyond "Well, Multiverse!" I think it's lazy and makes me roll my eyes because I know if I bring that up, it'll just turn into 🤬. Like get me to believe not try to guilt me or force me to believe, and I'll change my mind, but I can't say that because people'll assume I'm "invalidating" them. I don't believe in that term either, because it's such a loaded word, because as I've said before, if you are deriving your validation from others, then that is the problem here.

I've said it before elsewhere, and I'll say it until I die, being in any echo chamber of ideology will never be a good thing. It's always good to have someone you completely disagree with on many things as a close friend. It makes you  think about why you believe what you do. People asking me questions that made me pissed have, historically, been some of the most important questions to me. Even if I passionately disagree with the statements behind them, they have allowed me to know I disagree beyond the shadow of a doubt. You can't oppose something if you don't understand it.

This is a very lucid point. Echo chambers can be incredibly dangerous. I make a point of surrounding myself with people that disagree with me (I think it's impossible to find anyone that does agree with you on literally 100% of everything anyway but I digress) as I think that that is healthy and ideal. Obviously you don't want to just entirely surround yourself with people who think your identity is false or anything, but you don't want to be surrounded entirely by yes-men either. Like everything in life, I think balance is key!

As a physicist, I feel obliged to mention that the multiverse explanation is one of the problems I have with fictionkin along with not understanding how you could be and identify as a specific individual (especially one that hasn't physically existed and is the product of someone else's imagination). This is all obviously no problem if you take the psychological approach and think of it all as imprinting but I don't see how a spiritual explanation makes sense personally. As I mentioned earlier, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong but I don't feel like I'll ever have the opportunity for anyone to try and convince me due to fears of them feeling "invalidated" (god, I hate that word). I think part of that though is also the mistaken identification of beliefs with one's self. A lot of people seem to identify far too strongly with their beliefs and so mistakenly see an attack on their beliefs as an attack on them personally so view people disagreeing or being skeptical of their views as a personal attack when it's not. When I'm questioning someone and their beliefs, I'm not doing so because I dislike them or in an attempt to discredit and degrade them, I'm merely doing so because I'm a curious individual who tries to seek the truth and feel that I might learn something from them! I love everyone and you have to do a lot to get me to dislike you so there's no malice in it whatsoever.

5 hours ago, KnightFenrirWulfhart said:

Like, you Ambrose, I don't understand the who vampire thing. I think, in my opinion, that it's probably a psychosomatic response created through some sort of symbolic connection to the myths of vampires (excluding the supernaturally aspects, as you've noted) that's creating a sort of feedback loop in you. Does that mean it's correct? Not at all, but as of right now that's my opinion. And with all opinions I'm open to having my mind changed, but some things are just too ingrained in me to be willing to change for others without some sort of proof. But you obviously believe in it, and my confusion isn't going to change that. It's the same logic behind other things as well.

Yeah, and that's how it should be I reckon. Polite and respectful disagreement whilst keeping an open mind. I'm actually very pleased that you're skeptical--it's good to have someone with a different view to discuss things with. I do also believe that a lot of it is, as you said, a symbolic connection creating a feedback loop although the one thing that keeps me from seeing that explanation as sufficient enough in of itself is that I have felt the need to consume blood for as long as I can remember and long before I even knew what vampires were. So, as much as I'd love a purely psychosomatic explanation, I can't really explain how the blood thing could be a result of unconscious identification with the myths of vampires if I wasn't even aware of them at that point. Although, it's very possible that it has been further reinforced by them. But no, I welcome any and all questions and am glad we're not entirely on the same page on this one.

5 hours ago, KnightFenrirWulfhart said:

@LunastreDraconis@Amber About the whole talking shit about humans thing, it doesn't matter to me about whether or not they had bad experiences, or have PTSD about it. They are grown ups, and they are making the choice to act on those feelings, and broadcast them. I have been hurt by certain groups of people before, mainly women, to the point where it's hard for me to trust them at all. I assume they're all out to use me and hurt me, but as a grown adult, I recognize that is a dangerous point of view, and totally inaccurate to generalize in that matter. I have the urge to default to that, but I make the choice to not let my past continue to hurt me, and acting on that ingrained feeling won't solve anything, just make it so I'm hurting more. So, yes, I feel bad for them, but I still judge them for it, and will never just let it go. That may come across as harsh, but I've dealt with people using those excuses to be cruel to me, and I will never tolerate that kind of behavior. It is rude, hateful, and completely uncalled for. 

The shit-talking humans thing is a big turn-off for me too if I'm entirely honest. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand it! But I don't condone it. I think it just puts us in a vicious cycle where each side justifies treating the other poorly based on the other's rhetoric. I don't think someone who isn't alterhuman and comes along to see stuff like "I hate humans, they should go extinct!" is going to become more sympathetic and understanding toward us but rather the opposite. Replace humans with any other group, i.e. "I hate Jews, they should all go extinct!" and you'll see just how repulsive such statements sound and how unsettling they are. I think it only serves to set people against us. I've been treated very poorly and even attacked due to my race/ethnicity in the past so such generalizations of people and justifications for treating them as lesser just feel obscene and repugnant on a very fundamental level to me. I think the onus is on us to rise above such rhetoric and set a better example. 

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So, I don't want to add another wall of text to the pile... I understand this is meant to be a rant, but could we lower the emotion here a bit? After all there is no need to express one's opinion using abusive language or capitalized wording... Last but not least since this is a public blog.
My current opinion about fictionkin is different from yours. I know the concept may be difficult to wrap your mind around, but I've read very interesting and valid reports from some fictionkin experiences. And I think that it is indeed possible, yet complex, to construct a coherent Multiverse hypothesis which basically explains the existence of fictionkin. I have put quite some thought into a scientific-style description of such, also to explain my own experiences. I'm actually a bit sad the general fictionkin community doesn't seem to have invested that level of thought, at least not as far as I've seen. My idea relates to philosophy, quantum physics and physical cosmology; if you'd like to discuss it, I'd like to invite you to do this here

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I used abusive language in my replies? Where? I wasn't aware of doing so, sorry, but I apologize if I did. That wasn't my intention. And great, thanks @Amber, I'll check it out! As I said, I have no inherent problems with fictionkin and find it all explainable from a psychological perspective, I just have yet to hear a spiritual explanation that I find satisfactory and coherent. And I still don't fully understand how you could be someone else. I'm more than happy to discuss it and learn more. When I say I am skeptical, I don't in any way mean that I think they're all lying or delusional or anything of the sort, only that the concept as I currently understand it doesn't make sense to me. I'm always more than happy to be proven wrong and shown otherwise. I actually enjoy it. Shows me that there's always more to the world beyond my current understanding and more things to find out!

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I'm not gonna add a lot because I don't really want to get into a discussion, but:

If I question someone new, it's because I found them interesting. It's not meant to discourage or chase them off, quite the opposite. The questioning is meant to give them something to chew on, something to respond to, so they will stay.

I don't question people often, but when I do- it's because I want to encourage their active participation.

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@Amber

I understand where you are coming from, but I do not think I need to reduce the emotion in the comments on my post, as it's the same manner in which I was talking about in the actual rant.

Also, since they are nestled into the comments on a blog post prefaced with the forewarning about the manner of which this post is made, plus the tags. I sincerely believe that I have covered my bases in regards to the fact that people who are coming here to read it, if they are going to get angry or hurt by it, then they read it specifically to get hurt. I don't believe I should censor myself needlessly on something that no one is being forced to read.

As I said before, I'm not saying this in a place of hatred, I was simply making my points. And yes, I have emotions about them, hence the nature of it being a rant. 

Also, you mention capitalizing and "abusive language" I am actually quite confused as to what you mean, because I only used capitalization twice in the same paragraph as something "controversial." There were a few times earlier in the post, but to show emphasis on certain words. Should I have used bolding instead? I'm not sure why that's suddenly being addressed. And the "abusive language" seems like a stretch to me, because I barely swore in my post, considering the length, and maybe I'm different, but jackass and shit aren't really swears to me. I used "fuck" a few times, that I can see being a little more "crass."

Honestly, this feels like an attempt to find things wrong with my conduct to shut down my own opinion, on my own blog, on a post that was clearly labeled Rant, with warnings all at the beginning. I'm really not sure what the problem is here concerning that.

It's two people, commenting on the nature of a blog post, about the content stated in it, sharing opinions, and talking. This sudden turnaround from what was repeatedly stated to be "perfectly okay" behavior only a few comments ago has only become "problematic" once I stated an opinion about a major aspect of Otherkin community. If I can't discuss things about Otherkin community and belief on my own blog, with another who shares similar opinions, then what's this site for?

Is it solely to be an echo chamber where one must cow the line, and capitulate to the narrative of others? I am not going to the Multiverse subforum and putting my opinions in each and every thread. I'm not going to each person, and making sure that they know that I do not believe in each and every single one of them individually, are I? 

Is this site only to talk about what others believe, or am I allowed to bring my own view point to the table, in my own blog, in the comments, behind walls of text no one who isn't invested in this conversation will read? You would have to work to get to my comments, and then read through walls of text to get to it. There is nothing that wasn't okay earlier anywhere one would easily see it, so I think that assessment seems a little flat. Isn't that far less harmful than something, say, vague posting about people. That seems to be far more conductive to a negative atmosphere than comments hidden away.

And okay, yes, you have a different opinion on Fictionkin. I'm glad you're able to accept it into your world views easily, but I, and believe me I've tried, cannot, and trying to shame me into accepting it isn't the way to go.

Otherkin spend so much time talking about Trolls talking badly about Otherkin, and how horrible it is, and how they shouldn't do it. But as soon as someone points out the hypocrisy of Otherkin doing the same thing back, it's now so horrible, and needs to be policed. It's a double standard, and I do hope you realize it.

I would probably want to drop this post, since apparently I was right in my tag, that it's become controversial (to say the least, and much to my confusion.) I was originally going to say how nice it was to be able to talk about this kind of thing and have people be actually open about it, but I got excited a bit too early it seems.

I will give your theory a read, but you must understand, I am under no obligation to accept it. I will go into it open minded, and try to keep my biases from directly influencing it, as that's all anyone can do in these cases.

Do I think Fictionkin deserve to be harassed? Obviously, not! I've stated that repeatedly. I think many Fictionkin are great people, but do I believe in their spiritual beliefs about it? No. Do you believe in everything a Christian believes? Do you believe in everything a Hellanic Pagan believes? Do you believe in everything a follower of Shinto believes?  Do you believe everything that a Houdoun follower believes?

No, because that would be ludicrous to expect someone to agree with everything. I'm not being hateful, or inflammatory. And the subtle accussation of such is quite hurtful, and very uncalled for, as well as being rude.

Now, do I think you're a bad person? Hells, no! I can tell you're just coming from your point. Do I think you are wrong about your claims in this case? Yes, because I believe I'm in adherence of all the sites rules and guidelines.

I will try to cut back on my already restrained use of "adult" terms, that I can acquiesce to. I guess I won't use caps for anything anymore, because apparently that's bad. But I will not censor myself for simply stating an opinion, especially one that is quite tame. You'll also not I didn't say I don't believe in Fictionkin completely. You are allowed to believe it, you are allowed to live your life under such beliefs, but trying to force me to accept them on the implied threat of staff power seems to be violating the rules of this site as well.

So I guess I should ask, since in the end, you are part of the staff. Are you saying I have to stop stating my beliefs on my own blog? And is that a personal demand, or the demand of the staff? Because I will comply with site policy, since even though I'm in general adherence to the rules, they do have that subclause that a staff member is basically allowed to make rules up if they feel they should. So you need to tell me, are you saying that from perspective of Amber the kinmunity member, or @Amber Guardian and staff member?

I think you're a swell guy, and I would like to still be friends. None of this is an attack in any way. I'm just defending myself, and debating my points, as I feel everyone is allowed to.

I will cut back on my very rare swearing, some will still get through, but I will try since that's "abusive" apparently, even though it wasn't ever directed at a specific person, but whatever on that. I'll concede for that one. 

As well as caps on single words (except for BAD GUYS which was two but was used for emphasizing a paraphrased quote.)

I was angry at first, but I'm just genuinely sad that I now have evidence about exactly what I was ranting about in the first place.

Also, I apologize for the wall of text, I'm sure you've noticed, I can't control my typing lengths. It's a problem. I can't shorthand really, I have to force myself, and even then, this is what you get.

They do say, sometimes, less is more, but I haven't really internalized that lesson, yet, am I right? 😛

I haven't read your post yet though, but I'll comment my questions in it, so you needn't worry about having to check here about it. 😄 

Also, I finished my other new post about the Supernal Beasts if you want to give it a look. I would be genuinely curious about your reactions to it, especially the Mythic Beasts. You'll probably either have strong opinions, or questions. So you can either comment them, or message me if you want, or more accurately if you care enough about it. I don't mean that in a passive aggressive way, but in the genuine manner of that you might simply just like it, or dislike it, and might not feel strongly one way or the other. My husband @KingLeonhartofTheDawn informed me that solid walls of texts like I had before are very scary, daunting, and kinda boring, and you probably didn't want to have to face that wall of words I threw up there, so I did some formating, and decided to make it look nice and colorful for aesthetic purposes. (It'll probably look best in Wolven theme. Just saying, because that's what I use 😉) Everyone lurking and reading this, I encourage you to read my The Others post series, and give me your opinions on them. I welcome one and all to tell me what you think. I'm always hungry for some creative, and constructive criticism.

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@KnightFenrirWulfhart I was reading the first paragraph of Amber’s post as a mod comment, and the rest of it as their opinion as a regular member, personally. The fictionkin part was just them explaining their thoughts, but not trying to tell you, as a mod, how you’re supposed to feel about them.

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Oh dear... now I need to try and calm the waves myself. So actually, my previous post was not meant as a mod post at all. If that would have been the case, I'd have referred to the site guidelines. I would have probably posted the same as a regular member, although I'll admit that I felt even more like I should do so having my mod role in the back of my head. Let me shortly explain my intention. First of all, I'm sure that everybody of us has high interest in improving the public reputation of the otherkin community. And that, as I said, absolutely includes us demonstrating to express and openly discuss controversial opinions and beliefs, as well as actively questioning our own beliefs. Public blog posts like this one are a fantastic way to do so!
Now, I personally prefer to do so in a calm and open manner and environment. In other words: I'm not a fan of ranting at all. So, reading through the comments, I felt quite some tension coming up and I feared that this might escalate even more. So I actually only meant to ask everyone to calm down and not use exaggerate language. Without actually wanting to offend, blame or attack anyone. I now think it would have been better to explain this a bit more in the first place, and my use of the term "abusive language" was probably wrong. I sincerely hope this statement cleared things up.

The fictionkin related part of my post was really only to express and offer a different opinion on the subject, and pointing to an already existing thread to discuss the thinking that led me to this opinion. Nobody is in any way obliged to discuss it, agree to it, or read it, by any means. Also I don't at all intend to shut down anyone's opinion - instead I'm absolutely encouraging everybody to freely state their opinions and beliefs, as said above. That especially includes you, @KnightFenrirWulfhart. Like many others on this site, I find your experiences and opinions extremely interesting. Please continue to state them. I perfectly know that you respect different beliefs and opinions - so do I.

Finally, I don't have any problem with long texts. I'm sorry if that impression has come across. I know that oftentimes there is much, much thought put into such texts, and I enjoy reading very much. I've read the Supernal Beasts post already with just the same fascination as your other posts, @KnightFenrirWulfhart, and I did have a few questions that came to my mind... sadly I didn't find the time yet to formulate a comment. I'll probably do that next weekend.

I hope I could make myself clearer a bit... I'm looking forward very much to further discussions with all of you!

 

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@Amber

Thank you for the reply, as well as for answering my questions. 

I stand by my comments, but I completely understand where you were coming from now, so I apologize for my passive aggressive, (and pissed) tone, I am used to having to defend myself against attacks on my character through horrible accusations, so I have built up an automatic defense system when I get upset about things of that nature. I tried to keep it calm, but when I'm angry, sometimes I can't tell if I'm staying calm, or letting my anger through.

And about mod replies, now I know, so I'll know if you are! I mean, hopefully, something like this won't happen again. But let's be honest, it might, but I'll definitely try to swear less in the future. (I swear like a sailor in person, so I restrain myself a lot here, but sometimes it slips through and I don't even notice it)

Like I said, everyone's allowed to live their lives how they desire (as long as all parties are consenting, and no one is getting hurt without said consent) I am just a firm believer than no one is obligated to believe others beliefs.

I did read your theory, @Amber it was definitely interesting. Like I mentioned, definitely brings to mind our mini debate about consensual reality. It is actually really intriguing to me how we both have similar theories, but our seem to go in two different directions. 

I think that's a fascinating show of different of perspective, and the funny thing is that both of our theories could be correct, or we could both be so off the mark that it'd be comical, but it still shows the inherent difference between two people. But I appreciate us being able to discuss those kinds of things from an open, and engaging, point of reference.

And don't worry about replying fast! I was just hoping that you'd like it. I was actually really surprised where my notes ended up going. Before I posted these, they were a small collection of notes (Mostly just words and names of powers and items) and some vague ideas I had, but I had oodles of fun coming up with new ideas, and the formatting was uber cool to do!

I will mention that each clade, and especially each race, is based around certain flaws, and mental illnesses or disorders. Not a one for one, but inspired by and created around the idea. Consider them all with great pros (Power) and great cons (Most likely agonizing deaths, and insanity brought about by the stress of power and lack of humanity [I use that ironically but in regards to the lack of grounding they end up having]

Edited by KnightFenrirWulfhart
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