Christianity and free will | Kinmunity: Otherkin Community

Christianity and free will

Discussion in 'Religion & Spirituality' started by Oak, Aug 17, 2015.

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  1. Oak

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    Lately I've been trying to do some research on the bible to put some arguments between my family and I to rest. I was raised in a Christian family, and pretty much all of my family is religious except for me. My mother knows I'm not religious and likes to stir up arguments about it, so I decided it was time for me to have some things to come back with instead of seeming uninformed.
    Anyway, I'd like to hear other people's opinions about what I've put together. I was looking in Exodus, about the plagues on Egypt and how Pharaoh kept refusing to let the Israelites go to the wilderness to worship. Well it says several times in these verses that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" and that that is why he would not relent. Towards the end it also says that "The Lord made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people." The last part was basically so that the Israelites could plunder the Egyptians.
    My problem here comes when people say that God doesn't and won't alter free will, and when they use this as some excuse for bad things people do, or why they say people will go to hell, etc. All throughout this story, and probably more stories, God is altering people's free will in some way or another, and in this case even brutally punishing an entire race of people for something he made happen.
    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Nyht Myst

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    I had trouble accepting a book written by a man and altered and rewritten throughout the past to better suit the needs of the community/authority is so accepted as a holy book, I mean it is tainted with human emotions and thoughts not straight from Christianity's god; it still irks me that the bible used today still says raping a woman isn't an act of violence against her but against her husband and if she doesn't scream loud enough to get his attention she should be stoned to death, at one time it called for goat sacrifices.... There are many things I have issues with when it comes to the bible and Christianity.

    I do wish you the best of luck on your counter argument, but from what I've seen of christians countering them won't stop them and will only make them mad.
     
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  3. PerkyHedgewitch

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    I think the difference here is that you're looking at what "people" say vs. what the Bible says on the matter. People say lots of things that aren't in the Bible (like the no tampering with free will thing) and treat it like it's Gospel truth (pun intended). "Spare the rod, spoil the child" was allegedly in the Bible, and in reality, it's nowhere to be found. "Idle hands make the Devil's work" is another great one that people have claimed is in the Bible.

    As far as free will, it doesn't say anywhere that God said "oh, btw, I'm not going to put you guys in situations that will force you to do things my way."
     
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  4. Oak

    Oak Spawn
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    I agree completely, the bible is full of very messed up things and the fact that that people can defend it so much and claim it goes against things it clearly doesn't is so dumb. The bible is pro slavery and shows women as objects, quite literally. There is even one passage somewhere that I don't remember exactly where from, but it basically says something along the lines that slaves should never defy their masters no matter how harsh they may be. And I do know that even when you make an argument that they clearly can't get around they simply use whatever excuse they have.
    Thanks for the well wishes. ^_^
    I had actually considered that, and I was going to look to see if there actually were any scriptures that said God wouldn't alter free will. The only reason I actually started any of this at all was basically because of some things my family, and others, have said. I should look to see if what they say is actually in the bible to begin with rather than just starting with things that go against said statement, that is true.
    I actually have a lot of interest in religions and debating them, but I think to start that I should approach with arguments based on what people are claiming and using as apologetics.
    Thanks for pointing that out! I'll definitely have to keep in mind to check that out next time I try to find anything. :)
     
  5. Ouroboros85

    Ouroboros85 Golden Dragon
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    This quote, a favourite of athiests everywhere immediately comes to mind and I think sums up the entire arguement pretty well.

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"
    Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
     
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  6. Bran

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    Here comes my usual Christian defense post.
    On the topic of free will. The book never states that God cannot or will never override free will. What actually occurs is that people derive the idea of free will from the biblical statement, "God is love." This idea is that you can't claim to love your spouse if you lock them in your basement. That's not love, that's possessiveness. The idea of free will is also found in the story in the Garden where instead of taking away Adam and Eve's choice to eat of the forbidden tree, he simply tells them not to. When they disobey, the result is 'evil" which is their inevitable death. Picking one or two specific examples doesn't override the vast examples of free will throughout the rest of the book. A Christian can argue easily that, in general, unless thereis some HUGE specific purpose, God allows us to have free will, and using that free will, we do bad things.

    The argument of hell flows from this. If God is truth, and he gives us free choice to reject him, then there must be some place to be where God isn't. As God is the source of life, joy, health etc...the total absence of him = hell.

    It is then often argued that if God knows the future, then we can't have free will. i often respond that if God created this universe, then he is necessarily not part of space-time. Words like 'future' are thus meaningless. I liken it to looking down at a timeline on your desk. From your vantage point you can see the entire timeline from beginning to end. Any point along the line you focus on is you seeing that even as it happens thus your gaze does not lock a future into place and erase free will.

    On the subject of rape, the book in no way ever condones rape. Many insist that it does due to the NIV translation of Deuteronomy 22:28,29. If you see a KJV, however, you will find that the rape verse uses the phrase "force" here where the verse witht he maiden in a field says "take her." There is a good reason for this given the original hebrew verbs, Taphas and Chazaq. One is a verb that describes force, and the other does not. The point is that the maiden in the field, whom the man must pay silver for, is NOT raped. The union is consensual. For a parallel Verse, see Exodus 22:16 After I point this out, people usually bring up a chapter concerning an attack on the Midianites, then ascribe something Moses said to do, to YHVH. The problem is that Moses said it, not YHVH.

    On slavery, people never seem to see Exodus 21:16 which clearly states that kidnapping people and selling or keeping them is punishable by death. This tells me quite plainly that the "slavery" the hebrews practiced was nothing at all like the trans-atlantic slave trade we all hate. it was something contractual and quite different. it was something that a fatehr would allow their own child to go into. The servitude, a better word, was a way to gain food and a roof over one's head, often in a higher status household than the one a person was born into.

    I would also like to point out that the bible doesn't use the word "omnipotent." The God of the bible truly cannot make a rock that he cannot lift, precisely because the God of the bible is a God of truth. Many people say AHA, and then many Christians cringe and equivocate, yet the Christians really shouldn't. it really takes nothing away from their concept of God, which per the Christian paradigm, remains firmly at the top of the food chain as a supreme and unsurmountable power that has no equal.

    Second to last, and this has yet to be brought up here, but it is often argued that YHVH is bad because he ordered a genocide. I answer by pointing to Deuteronomy Chapter 2. Reading that Chapter one sees that in any area from which the Rephaim had already been driven out, God tells the Israelites not to bother the people living there. This states plainly that the target of the annihilation CDampaign were those groups counted as "Rephaim." Rephaim = nephilim, the strange angel/human hybrids of genesis 6 and Enoch. I find it hard to be judgmental over God ordering them to destroy all the Rephaim as I have never seen a Rephaim. We have a clue, from the flood, that their advent upon earth resulted in terrible violence...so...perhaps God was just to have these nephilim things destroyed.

    Lastly, to the charge that the bible was altered and rewritten so vastly, that is not demonstrable. We have tons of manuscript evidence that show precious little alteration through time. There are some manuscripts that contain a few verses that other manuscripts do not contain, but those verses are not verses that alter any teachings or doctrine. The same can be said of the Catholic Apocrypha. Their bible includes Apocrypha, but those book s still do not alter theology or Doctrine. The Gnostic texts, which are often brought up, all date (save the gospel of Thomas) to times long after the bible was compiled. But i usually let a certain PhD do this part for me....you can find him at this LINK
     
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  7. Oak

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    I read about half of that before getting the general point. And while I probably could go look for some things I could use as arguments, I won't bother, I'm a bit tired. Either way, everyone's going to have an opinion, right? :) I'm not really going to address anything specific because the fact is I didn't read the whole thing.
    With all due respect I didn't exactly want a lecture or anything on my thread, I was more looking for thoughts on what I had said specifically, direct criticism or pointers based on that in hopes that I could improve what I had specifically, or just to see what people thought of it in general... But thanks for your time?
    (edit) As I said, I don't have a lot of knowledge about the bible up my sleeve yet, I've only just now started looking at the bible with skepticism rather than just taking anything in it as fact. I totally would have replied to all of that if I had all the resources to at the moment, but I'm not quite that prepared yet.
     
  8. Ouroboros85

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    Ohhh boy, I can tell immediately what brand of apologetics you subscribe to and I have to say, no, your wrong on nearly all counts. Lets go down the list you've given just to avoid confusion. I'll start with free will, I don't think the garden of eden is the best example of god violating free will here, though he most certainly did, possibly the best example is The Pharaoh of Egypt whom god hardened the heart of, forcing god to there for punish him, but god doesn't really punish the guilty party in a significant way here, instead he takes it out on Egypts first borns, ontop of all the other plagues and so on. Theres a laundry list of smaller incidents but thats one of the worst being wholesale genocide of children. Its also a violation of ones free will to give an apparent choice but hold the proverbial gun to their head when they choose to disobey, thats not free will, thats blackmail.

    Second, hell, it is not just an absense of god (which honestly wouldn't be a bad thing, this world seems totally absent of gods presence) but has some description beyond that in the bible, i'll present just one to save on space.

    A place of outer darkness - "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 22:1:relievedface:.


    Still, a infinate punishment for a finite crime seems kind of excessive don't you think? not very loving, not at all forgiving.

    Third, the bible gives specific days for how long it took god to do these things, since your so fond of the hebrew why don't you look up what the translation of that is, because it does mean very specifically a day, not any of the words used elsewhere in the bible to present a more loose interperatation of time, god also in several instances grows impatient which suggests he has a grasp of time as we know it.

    Fourth and this is the big one, rape. I direct you to Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 20:10-14 oh and I especially love this one in Deuteronomy 22:23-24, thats not even a quater of the list of absolutely obscene areas where the bible talks about rape and in most cases mass murder and slavery as well since they tend to be along the lines of, kill all the men but keep the women and female children for yourselves as spoils of war, but those verses go into much more detail of it than I care to right here.

    This fifth one is one of the most common ones that needs debunking from apologists, slavery, in addition to most of what I listed above I am going to simply post one that lays it out with extraordinary clarity.
    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

    Oh ok, guess I will do a second one as well just to show the conditions for them.

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    Theres plenty more there such as how you might make a person a slave for life by keeping their wife and children in slavery Exodus 21:2-6.

    Ok, now onto gods claims of omnipotence, I have a few choice quotes here to.

    But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. ” Matthew 19:26
    Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” Mark 10:27

    Whelp ok, I also see you like to jump to the KJV so lets go there as well.

    “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!” (Revelation 19:6).

    Now onto the real fun one, genocide and cookies, well ok, just genocide perhaps but theres a hell of allot of it, every second page in the old testament seems to have a slaughter either directly from god or in gods name and before you say 'but thats old testament' same god and jesus and several of his disciples explicitly reference the old testament (of course since the bible didn't exist yet) and say that it still all applies. If you want to give up the old testament you have to give up such things as the 10 commandments which are NOT repeated in the new testament. I think i've already provided plenty of examples but heres a few more.

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

    "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

    Ok, now onto biblical changes, this one and your claim honestly makes me laugh, there are many and varied examples of biblical changes, some of them quite important and I don't think we even need to bring in the other early christian writings for the bible to openly contradict itself which it does almost as often as god orders someone put to death. I'll keep it brief since I could spend days on this one. It doesn't help that the first writings appeared several centuries after the supposed life of Jesus, none occured within 'living memory' of the supposed events.

    I'll actually go right for Jesus in this one where the original version of Mark depicts a Jesus who is described as being indignant and filled with anger upon having to heal a leper, where the later renditions of the text lighten the tone and changes Jesus’ character not at all in a slight way. That certainly changes the tone of him, what, with that and people who disagree with him being killed by serpents or angels?
     
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  9. Bran

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    Here we go.

    Ohhh boy, I can tell immediately what brand of apologetics you subscribe to and I have to say, no, your wrong on nearly all counts. Lets go down the list you've given just to avoid confusion. I'll start with free will, I don't think the garden of eden is the best example of god violating free will here, though he most certainly did, possibly the best example is The Pharaoh of Egypt whom god hardened the heart of, forcing god to there for punish him, but god doesn't really punish the guilty party in a significant way here, instead he takes it out on Egypts first borns, ontop of all the other plagues and so on. Theres a laundry list of smaller incidents but thats one of the worst being wholesale genocide of children. Its also a violation of ones free will to give an apparent choice but hold the proverbial gun to their head when they choose to disobey, thats not free will, thats blackmail.

    I didn't say The garden was an example of free will violated. I said it was an example of free will being utilized. I have no problem with God taking Egypt's Taking them firstborn. Taking them via an Angel won't hurt them. That's just an FYI, as we move forward. To me this life is miniscule and of little importance compared to eternity. The flesh means nothing compared to the spirit. So emotional appeals to such things won't work on me, not when it is GOD taking people. Am i supposed to be grieved that God took Elijah as well? As for the free will with a gun to the head argument. I simply disagree, the choice is still present. bad choices are still choices as far as I am concerned.


    Second, hell, it is not just an absense of god (which honestly wouldn't be a bad thing, this world seems totally absent of gods presence) but has some description beyond that in the bible, i'll present just one to save on space.

    Again, we will have to simply disagree because that is exactly what I think hell, is a place where God is not.

    A place of outer darkness - "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 22:1:relievedface:.


    Still, a infinate punishment for a finite crime seems kind of excessive don't you think? not very loving, not at all forgiving.

    No, I don't think it's excessive. If a person does not want God, then they won't be forced to live where God is. They will go where he is not. besides, the choice to accept is an extremely simple and easy choice to make.

    Third, the bible gives specific days for how long it took god to do these things, since your so fond of the hebrew why don't you look up what the translation of that is, because it does mean very specifically a day, not any of the words used elsewhere in the bible to present a more loose interperatation of time, god also in several instances grows impatient which suggests he has a grasp of time as we know it.

    You must be referencing creation? If so, you are incorrect. "Yom" is used through out the new testament to mean things other than a specific 24 hour period. It's like when we say, "back in MY day....." Besides, the lights in the sky for reckoning "days" were not present until the fourth day thus making it impossible to say that the genesis "day" is a literal 24 hour "day."

    Fourth and this is the big one, rape. I direct you to Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 20:10-14 oh and I especially love this one in Deuteronomy 22:23-24, thats not even a quater of the list of absolutely obscene areas where the bible talks about rape and in most cases mass murder and slavery as well since they tend to be along the lines of, kill all the men but keep the women and female children for yourselves as spoils of war, but those verses go into much more detail of it than I care to right here.

    Judges 21:10 does not feature YHVH ordering the people to rape anyone. It reports what the people did. Not everything the bible reports is condoned by God. We know God strictly forbids rape from mosaic law. I mentioned numbers 31 already when I referenced the attack on the Midianites. ALL YHVH tells them to do is... "“Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people." Nothing else. The rest is what MOSES said, not God. You aren't the only one that missed that. it happens a lot. There are no sexual activities described in Deut. 20:10-14, one has to assume it. deut. 22: 23-24 is not a rape. urther down in that same chapter is God's stern injunction against rape. in OT law, Rape was punishable by death.

    This fifth one is one of the most common ones that needs debunking from apologists, slavery, in addition to most of what I listed above I am going to simply post one that lays it out with extraordinary clarity.

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
    Oh ok, guess I will do a second one as well just to show the conditions for them.
    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
    Theres plenty more there such as how you might make a person a slave for life by keeping their wife and children in slavery Exodus 21:2-6.

    Sure, yet as I pointed out all these things are informed by Exodus 21:16 which sternly forbids kidnapping and selling people.

    Ok, now onto gods claims of omnipotence, I have a few choice quotes here to.
    But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. ” Matthew 19:26
    Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” Mark 10:27
    Whelp ok, I also see you like to jump to the KJV so lets go there as well.
    “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!” (Revelation 19:6).


    Today we like to say, "Anything is possible if you put your mind to it." It's a figure of speech. Here's the greek for revelation 19:9 That's why all the othertranslations say "Almighty." The greek word is not an equivalent to the modern English word "omnipotent."

    Now onto the real fun one, genocide and cookies, well ok, just genocide perhaps but theres a hell of allot of it, every second page in the old testament seems to have a slaughter either directly from god or in gods name and before you say 'but thats old testament' same god and jesus and several of his disciples explicitly reference the old testament (of course since the bible didn't exist yet) and say that it still all applies. If you want to give up the old testament you have to give up such things as the 10 commandments which are NOT repeated in the new testament. I think i've already provided plenty of examples but heres a few more.
    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)


    Yep, I talked about God's campaign to destroy the Nephilim already. no, I am not moved by it. Again, as I have never seen what the presence of Nephilim is like, I don't judge those events. God seemed quite serious about not allowing nephilim to propogate. I also think that that is partially why Sodom and Gamorrah were destroyed. They DID try to have sex with angels

    "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

    In that passage, God is sending angels to kill again and again I am not moved by God's direct slaying. God could decide to wipe us all out. If this is his creation, he gets to do what he wants with it. Since I cannot see down through all of time, since I can't see what effect every decision and every life has as it ripples through time, I can't judge acts of God.

    Ok, now onto biblical changes, this one and your claim honestly makes me laugh, there are many and varied examples of biblical changes, some of them quite important and I don't think we even need to bring in the other early christian writings for the bible to openly contradict itself which it does almost as often as god orders someone put to death. I'll keep it brief since I could spend days on this one. It doesn't help that the first writings appeared several centuries after the supposed life of Jesus, none occured within 'living memory' of the supposed events.

    101 cleared up "contradictions" No, there really isn't any examples of important changes. To prove an "important change" we'd need an original manuscript in which a verse or passage says one thing concerning doctrine, then we'd need to find later manuscripts in which that exact passage says something else that establishes a totally different doctrine. There isn't such an example. Again what exists is some manuscripts that have extra verses and that is not a problem unless that change doctrine, which they don't. Also, look at the video I linked to. it offers the very potent evidence as to why you are wrong about the date of the writing. If the writings didn't occur until centuries later, then how did early Church father, whom we KNOW lived in the first century due to roman records, QUOTE the gospels? In order for the gospels to be quoted in the 1st century, they would have to first exist.

    I'll actually go right for Jesus in this one where the original version of Mark depicts a Jesus who is described as being indignant and filled with anger upon having to heal a leper, where the later renditions of the text lighten the tone and changes Jesus’ character not at all in a slight way. That certainly changes the tone of him, what, with that and people who disagree with him being killed by serpents or angels?

    Does the Gospel of Mark Reveal Jesus’ Anger or His Compassion? – Biblical Archaeology Society

    There you go. Plus, anger and compassion can be two sides of the same coin. Compassion for the leper, anger for why he had leprosy...for instance. Compassion for him, anger at how he had been treated. See what i mean? No doctrinal alteration there at all.
     
  10. Ouroboros85

    Ouroboros85 Golden Dragon
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    Wow, I can now see that it was probably a waste of time for me to debate you. You claim that because it is god that it is there for just and right no matter how much the suffering and no matter how many die by his word or his direct actions. You are as psychotic as the god you worship.
     
  11. Bran

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    Well, no, what i said is that I am incapable of judging acts of God because I can't see down through time and thus I can't know the ripping effects of each action a person makes and each life that is present on the planet.

    But you can call me psychtoic if that helps you justify your feelings. i don't mind.
     
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  12. Nyht Myst

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    @Oak I would like to apologize for how off track this thread has gotten and your intended question was disregarded, there are many here that are open to religious talk but some still take that as a very touchy subject and feel they need to defend their own beliefs even if they aren't called into question. I think most of us here have learnt any more questions about religion would be best set in Defending Your Territory.
     
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  13. Ouroboros85

    Ouroboros85 Golden Dragon
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    Agreed, my own apologies on this @Oak for being half of the reason for the derailing of the thread.
     
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  14. PerkyHedgewitch

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    Here's where it all went off the rail.

    You don't need to defend when you're not being attacked. Someone saying they have issues with certain practices? Not attacking Christianity. Someone saying they want a deeper knowledge of the Bible? Definitely not attacking Christianity. If someone said they had issues with Hedgewitchery I wouldn't suddenly jump to the "LET ME TELL YOU ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE GOT WRONG".

    And also here, where it devolved to personal insults. Seriously? "I don't like what you're saying so I'm going to not just insult you, but be all ableist about it too."

    Let's take this back to talking about things that are or are not in the Bible, with some cited passages, so we can help @Oak get the info they need.


    EDIT: @Ouroboros85 did you seriously just dislike my post because I called you out on ableist language? Wow.
     
    #14 PerkyHedgewitch, Aug 19, 2015
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  15. Ouroboros85

    Ouroboros85 Golden Dragon
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    *sighs* I didn't think I'd have to explain this but I guess I have to, even as fictional as the majority of the bible is if you believe that whats described in its pages or that of the old testament, if you believe all those genocidal acts are completely justified, why? because they where either commanded or carried out by your diety of choice, well then there is something seriously wrong there, especially if you believe any of those non-believers so mercifully killed by gods angels (add sarcasm) are going to be bound straight for hell, a place of eternal torment by all descriptions of it. I cannot agree morally with such a person or with the doctrine in question... but hey that is just me and perhaps a look at history with those who'd claim to be doing gods will despite perhaps being otherwise good people willing to suspend their own personal judgement and committ atrocities. Perhaps I should of asked if he agrees with Leviticus 20:13.
     
  16. PerkyHedgewitch

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    Please point out to me anywhere in their posts where they say "I wholeheartedly agree with anything the Bible says."

    This was someone going a bit over-the-top in defense of Christianity as they understood it. You were the one who sank to personal mudslinging. I feel like you almost purposely missed the point of what I said, which was "Hey, what's with the personal attacks in a calm discussion about Biblical citations?"

    I'm expecting you to dislike this too, because I again pointed out that your personal insults are uncalled for here.
     
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  17. Ouroboros85

    Ouroboros85 Golden Dragon
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    That would be right here, anyway we are derailing the thread again.

     
  18. PerkyHedgewitch

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    *sigh* Yep, you win, that's clearly blindly agreeing with anything the Bible says and not continuing a line of thought in the spirit of the discussion. It couldn't possibly be an intelligent person speaking for their argument in spirited debate. Nope, you're correct, that clearly calls for insults against a person's mental health.

    Forget this. I came here to calmly discuss, ended up calling someone out for resorting to getting personal, and now have to deal with them defending their insults and not seeing that they could have kept the discussion academic.

    Whatevs. I'm out. Bye Felicia.
     
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  19. Bran

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    If it helps, if I was God, I would have forbidden any semblance of Slavery. However I am not God, and as I keep saying there is too much about time and space for me to act as judge. I don't know why he didn't forbid it, but I do note that it was never commanded. it might even be argued that he tolerated it, for a time. I am happy with the current state of affairs, which involves the rest of the Christian bible (NT) in which Christ commands us to love our neighbors. It's hard to love a person and force them to serve you.

    To try and get the thread back on track...there is an interesting passage concerning God's foreknowledge and David.

    Then David said, “O Lord, the God of Israel, your servant has surely heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah, to destroy the city on my account.11 Will the men of Keilah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? O Lord, the God of Israel, please tell your servant.” And the Lord said, “He will come down.”12 Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah surrender me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the Lord said, “They will surrender you.”13 Then David and his men, who were about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah, and they went wherever they could go.- 1 Samuel 23:10-13

    What I find interesting is that God had foreknowledge of something that did not come to pass, which I think bears on the discussion of free will and the bible.

     
  20. Spiritual Hunters

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    There are two things that we find shouldn't be talked about because people will always get upset. Those would be religion and politics. This happens to be a subject near and dear to my heart. What problem I have is that the title to this thread is Christianity and free will. Christianity is the following of Christ and yet we're talking Old Testament which is completely contradicted the moment Jesus tells us our God is a loving and forgiving God. You know, "He who is free of sin may cast the first stone". Not much of the New Testament with Jesus Christ is mentioned which is the whole standard for 'Christ'ianity.

    We keep the Old Testament in our Bible because it's our starting point. It's the roots of Jesus and the rock we build our faith upon but it is not what we base out faith on. Our faith is in Jesus Christ and our loving Father. So saying Christianity is based solely on those older tales would be incorrect.

    Now, to address the thing that bother us most with this thread. The harassing and insulting is absurd. Y'all people brought this up then down voted and harassed someone who felt they needed to defend their faith. I feel the same way about it an it wasn't essentially the first post that did it. It was the posts after that would insult the words out faith is build upon. We ain't saying names but you know who you are and outright calling someone who follows the faith psychotic is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard coming from an otherkin. So how about we follow the thread and be mature adults with this crap before it gets locked up? Yeah? It's fine to question but the moment you start harassing, it ain't right.

    Edit: We agree with hedge witch on this one. Maybe you should read more than just a few pieces of the book before you go and judge it? That's like reading the first, eighth, and sixteenth chapter of a biology textbook than claimin you're an expert.

    -Kay
     
    #20 Spiritual Hunters, Aug 20, 2015
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