Communism | Kinmunity: Otherkin Community

Communism

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Draconi kratosus, Oct 23, 2015.

  1. Draconi kratosus

    Draconi kratosus Keeper of the Memory, Dream Interpreter

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    In all honesty I think it gets a bad reputation. At a base level communism is a good idea.
    Everyone equal, all get a fair share of the results of labour. Unfortunately, the application of it did not go as well as planned. On the large scale communism is flawed due to human nature, greed. It is greed that forms from abundance of supply that stops it from being successful.

    Meanwhile, in small communities, it works; just have a look at The Walking Dead comic series for example (I know it is fiction but work with me here) everybody has a job to do,which they do well; and they only get as much food as they need and no more. Everyone gets a say in the descisions. That is a prime example of Communism put to use effectively.
    In real life though, as wide spread as it had become, it does not work without proper maintenance and guidance.
     
    #1 Draconi kratosus, Oct 23, 2015
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  2. St Claire

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    I think communism is something that looks good on paper, but is very limited when it comes to practical applications. Yes it works very well in small communities, however there are very few small communities remaining.

    As I see it there are two major factors that rendor communism unviable in modern societies:
    1. Community size. Once a community reaches a certain size there will be a tipping point in which the amount of labour required does not align with the working population. This could tip either way. If there is too much labour for the people they will feel overworked and unhappy. If there is not enough labour they will feel undervalued and rifts will form within the community, ultimately leading to members leaving.
    2. Technological advancements. Advancements in technology mean there is a greater need for highly trained professionals within communities. In a community in which the people control the means of production, and no one works more than they have to, becoming highly trained would mean putting in more effort to earn a position which is ultimately regarded as equal to the position of the untrained. You may say it is greed that would motivate these trained individuals to have their efforts rewarded, but I think it is just human nature.
    I'm not saying these two factors are the only reason communism doesn't work, there is a thousand others, but they are pretty major hurdles. Perhaps in an earlier time, when communities were smaller and technology simpler, it could have worked but I think we, as a global human society, have long crossed that threshold. (The few communities that do successfully practice communism are the exception that proves the rule).

    (Also, in regards to my second point above, I am in no way suggesting that unskilled workers/labourers work less than trained workers. I fully acknowledge and appreciate the hard work of these people, and also acknowledge that there are a hell of a lot of highly trained people who get paid big bucks to do jack-all all day. This was a hypothetical in a setting in which unskilled workers would not have to keep three jobs just to pay their bills.)
     
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  3. StormyOnyx

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    Communism may not work large scale, but it still has its merits. It does indeed have a bad rep, but that's just because it was used incorrectly. Human nature can get in the way of even the best ideas sometimes, but that doesn't mean we should lock it up and throw away the key. I don't have as much knowledge about the subject as I should to give an educated opinion, but I do know that the system we have now isn't working. We're strangling ourselves. Katy Perry made $135 million last year. Meanwhile my bf and I together make less than $25,000. It just doesn't make sense to me how some people are entitled to more simply because lots of other people like to watch them. Humans are humans and no one is less important than anyone else. No one should be, at least.
     
  4. Rexkin

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    It doesn't work on a large scale you are right but for a real world example of it working look at the collective farms in Israel, they work very well.

    The first communist state in 1534 laid a template for the Soviet union in how it would progress
     
  5. Telegdrian

    Telegdrian Alien Equitaur
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    The countries that claimed to be communist were not communist, they were socialist, which is more just state ownership and central planning. That system doesn't work due to the above stated problems with human nature. Previous systems had the problem that there was a limited number of people making the decisions. and with power comes corruption. I think that communism could now be made to work with the advent of the Internet as everyone would be able to vote on the issues of the day. It would require quite a bit of a shift in the mentality of the people and the people would have to willing to get informed on the issues. I agree that the current system has to be changed as there is too much concentration of wealth and power in too few hands.
     
  6. Smooth Jazz Mann

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    I've always held the communism is a really good idea in theory, but to this day no large country has ever been able to successfully pull it off for an extended period of time, mostly due to the fact that even distributing resources across, say, Russia, is no easy thing to do.
     
  7. NeutroisCanine

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    I believe that individual, small communities are able to pull communism off, but an entire country just can't. (Not successfully, anyway.)
     
  8. Rexkin

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    I'd just like to point out that Russia never was meant for communism at that point. It was a fairly backwards country and was not industrialised enough, Britain or America are countries it was meant for
     
  9. Terro

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    "We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men’s labor. Here are two, not only different, but incompatable things, called by the same name—liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatable names—liberty and tyranny."

    - Abraham Lincoln

    The problem with communist model is not that people are greedy, but rather that it destroys the ability for a person to achieve more for themself. In a small community it does work well, I succeed more, therefore my friends and I live better. However if my success, no matter how great is used to improve people I do not know, at a level I have no control or say in, and I am unable to reap any of the benefits for myself... it kinda sucks.

    Further, who does the dividing? Thus the change between me succeeding and enjoying my resources, someone else gets to enjoy it.
     
  10. Alucard

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    it works in theory but poorly done in practice, for it to work you need a heart full un-corruptible person to rule it for it too work and which case all who taste power will be corrupted sooner or later by it, its why presidents dont run long but even then they can come in corrupt
     
  11. Yong Soo

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    Actual Communism has barely been attempted, let alone achieved. Fascism, yes. The funny thing about fascists and dictatorships is that they can say whatever they want, and call themselves whatever they want. The US is fascism masquerading as a democracy, one of the best examples of it in the world. It's so good at its job that most of its citizens don't wanna even hear that, and being able to strong-arm every nation around you is a quick way to be agreed with.

    As someone with half a family stuck in North Korea and a good chunk of the rest embroiled in politics (and trust me, "good" South Korea is hardly that - our president is the illegally elected daughter of a violent dictator, and there is so much blood on our hands in the name of capitalist democracy), I genuinely enjoy helping people understand what it actually is. It's also not what North Korea is under, unfortunately.

    The main tenant of communism is that all means of production are owned by those who operate them and benefit from them. No landlords, no CEOs, no millionaires kicking back in mansions while owning miles of land that they don't even use, no companies literally trademarking rights to food and water, for heaven's sake, because that's a gross waste of human resources.

    But it doesn't mean you can't have personal possessions, nor does it mean you can't create or sell things to other people for surplus profit. Functioning properly, it means you don't need to struggle for basic human necessities. Normally, when posed this way and not with "communism" attached, people receive it very well. But propaganda against the word is very effective, and a lot of people aren't willing to consider that they're influenced by it. Because propaganda is something only other countries do, the Bad Guys, even though there's aggressive ads for the military every time you go to see a dang movie. It's all the same really.

    People hear communism and think of dystopian novels. It's not Big Brother with his eye on you, it's people working together. The only reason people are "greedy by nature" is because the capitalist society we're in forces us to be. It's the rat race, eat or be eaten, etc. No one is born with the desire to succeed while others starve and freeze in the streets, that's just a cop-out.
     
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  12. Cipher

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    Agreeing with your post and this point, but I'd also like to add that I think there is a slight human nature issue; I think we still have a last vestige of that oldest animal instinct to survive, protect ourselves and our immediate social circles in order to reproduce kind of thing. An old, primal instinct that we still have because we're still animals, like it or not. But I agree in that I think capitalism exacerbates it to a point it shouldn't.
     
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  13. Yong Soo

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    I don't think this instinct is at odds with communism at all. It's not as if it calls for your family to be taken away, or that you're not allowed to defend yourselves if needed. Now imagine that you don't have to worry about your kids getting enough to eat, or your partner having money for meds? Imagine, instead of being robbed by a landlord every month, you and the other tenants of a building collectively own and operate and maintain that building, to keep it safe and habitable and comfortable for yourselves? (This is where the "people won't work if they don't have to" thing falls apart. We'll always need people with certain skillsets unless we wanna live in filth in the dark and devolve).

    Knowing that the immediate needs of you and yours are met would be a balm on the unnatural, inhumane stress we're currently put under. Because you're right about that instinct, and that's a big part of why the current system is so torturous - our ability to provide for and protect our own is limited or outright denied by others, and the very government itself is what encourages the artifical competition while its members sit back in luxury...
     
  14. Cipher

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    Meaning, adding onto that, that when I talk about the human instinct to protect social circles, I mean there's at least some element of instinct that causes us to not really care about people on the opposite side of a big country so it's harder for us to think about and care about the bigger picture of helping everyone to help ourselves, which is sadly a mindset people already don't seem to get a lot of the time. I think communism works beautifully on a small scale, but in cases of a country as big as the US? I don't see it as feasible, so I don't really support it as a good/the best form of government.

    That being said, I don't really like any of the forms of government currently in existence, because they all have their major problems. I don't have a solution, obviously, but I still feel like there is a better way than, well, anything we're trying. I mean, I've got vague kintype-related memories of how the governments of heaven/hell work, but they seem more to be a mixture of features and also not capable of generalizing to humans and bound up in that is a part of me idly wondering what monarchy in the modern world would look like with a few upgrades but let's not even go there. I don't want to go there. I don't know what me / my kinself is thinking with this it's just weird.
     
  15. Yong Soo

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    That's true too, but again, communism is about communal living. Communal doesn't mean spending all your time working for people who live in other states and towns not even near you. But everything is interconnected - each community providing for itself is one piece of a web of communities that, in need, can assist each other, and on a daily basis can exchange goods and services like you'd find today. Only rather than money and desperate survival being the ultimate goal, it's just continued normal functioning and prosperity. Big cities would follow the same model, only the communities within them would be much closer together obviously, and their output and interconnectivity would be immense.

    But there are going to be people who are offshoots and want nothing to do with anyone except, say, their blood relations. Maybe they wanna settle somewhere and just not be bothered, and that's their choice to make. Which is where people tend to get their backs up, because why would they wanna share food or allow shelter to anyone who isn't also working? One of the biggest evils of capitalism is that it's commodified these things that everyone, whether they work or not, has a right to, and it will take a lot of collective education and effort to get rid of that mindset. Under capitalism, we're all animals backed into a corner, and a lot of people will need to re-learn how they treat each other in order to break out of that system - not as competition, as potential threats, or as drains on resources, but as allies. The artificial scarcity capitalism causes being done away with plays a big part here. Of course people are defensive when others don't (or literally can't) work, and yet still expect to eat and have a roof over their heads - if everything is so scarce, why should they share? But that smokescreen coming down, and all the generated resources of each community being truly apparent and not sent away wherever the most money is, will make that a non-issue.

    Either way, there's no perfect implementation, and there will never be a utopia. More than likely there would be a lot of chaos and violence before communism could be properly put in place, mainly because the US government would go absolutely bloody manic trying to put a stop to it. Without global cooperation, I could easily see a dystopian future (even worse than where we're at now) coming from that reaction. It just can't be done by a population in one country, there has to be massive social change on a grassroots level before anything else.
     
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  16. St Claire

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    I still don't think that communism can work in a global economy such as the one we are currently living in. Democratic socialism may work, but i think it may still be a stretch.

    I think what the world needs is a system that combines capitalism with socialism. People can still strive to become rich, however if they achieve it they are met with taxes that are proportionate to their earnings. Also higher taxes for large corporations. These taxes will fund free healthcare, free education, and income subsidies for those who can't work. A higher minimum wage that reflects the actual cost of living ($20 an hour is generally the norm here in Australia for people over 18, but I'm aware that in the US the rate can be as low as $6 an hour. And this isn't even touching on developing countries).

    When the lower and working classes have the means to earn money that can be spent on things other than rent and bills they stimulate their local economies, which grows local businesses and creates more jobs. Whereas the rich (and in particular the "super" rich) prefer to sit on their money and contribute nothing to the economy in which they exist, effectively removing currency from the community. By increasing taxes to large corporations and wealthy individuals this currency is put back into circulation, easing the burden on the lower classes. If you don't want increased taxes the solution is simple, don't get rich.

    Some countries already have socialist policies in place. Here in Australia we have subsidised doctors visits (bulk billing), subsidised medication for people on a low income, and subsidised hospital expences for non-elective visits. All children have the right to attend a public school, regardless of if the parents can afford to pay the fees or not. It's simply a matter of expanding on these policies and introducing new ones.

    There has already been talk here about increasing the amount of tax paid when purchasing a house that costs over $1mil. Of course, this sparked outrage from the wealthy, who feel as if they are being punished for having more money. The rich are always going to be the ones standing in they way of social economic progress, because they have a fear of losing their income and having to live like the rest of us (which is not at all what would happen).

    I feel like this was a bit long winded, but yeah. I think a combined system is what we need right now. Full on communism, and even full on socialism, is just too much of a change from what people are used to and know. The change has to be gradual. Maybe generations down the track the world, and the people in it, will be in a better position to let go of capitalism all together, but at the present moment it just isn't feasable.
     
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  17. LoneWolf

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    Communism is a very polarising subject, and one that very few people fully grasp the nuances.
    In theory yes Communism has merit in its concept of equality, but equality at what cost. John Rawls made a famous argument against Communism where he made a good case for a well regulated capitalistic economy - his argument was that the problem with Communism is that it makes everyone equal by dragging everyone down to the same level. There are inherent problems with this, needless to say that people will not be as motivated to become doctors lawyers and scientists if there is no financial incentive. Some will do it if they have the motivation and passion for a given field, but most people require incentives. Rawls argued that inequality is justifiable if the worst off in society are better off then they would otherwise be in an equal society. This argument also has its flaws in its definition of what it means to be "worst off".
    The biggest problem with the concept of equality is that very few people break down the distinction between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. Communism in its purist forms pushes for equality of outcome, and this is its greatest flaw, because in such a society there is no incentive to be exceptional at anything. This is reflected in the failure of Communist Economies the world over. China was the first to realise this in the late 1970s when Dong Xiaoping took steps towards creating a "modern economy", Vietnam followed suit in the mid 1980s with similar positive results. Modern Economies are not by any means perfect, but the notion of equality of opportunity that they promote is key to their success and most failures can be attributed to abuses of these systems. Nevertheless, Communism does offer food for thought on womens rights and equality and it certainly played a key role in pushing western democracies towards some very useful and meaningful "socialist" ideas and policies such as "welfare" "public education" and "public healthcare".
    So there are pros and cons. Hopefully this perspective helps.
     
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  18. Riff

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    Some of the most common arguments I hear against communism are that it "works in theory, but not in practice," or that it "goes against human nature." As I read through this thread, I saw these same sentiments echoed by many of you here, so I thought I might take a moment to address what I believe are these common misconceptions about communism. For what it's worth, while I realize that it may not be the easiest thing to implement, I believe that Marxist communism would be the ideal economic system of a truly and inherently equal society.

    Now, to the first argument, I'll tell you that any state claiming to be "communist," for example North Korea or Venezuela, is nowhere near it; nor are any European countries, such as Denmark, truly "socialist." Unless I'm mistaken, I do not believe that actual communism has ever been successfully employed in any modern state. You could say that communism doesn't work in practice, but I would argue that any true attempts at practicing communism, if they have ever even existed, have been few and far between.

    But on the other end, if you can admit that communism at least looks good on paper, can you really say the same for capitalism? Perhaps as a leftist I am just biased, but I don't think that a system which actively encourages people to amass surplus wealth for themselves through the exploitation of others can possibly be a good idea, either in theory or in practice.

    So to the second misconception, I will admit that greed may seem to be an inherent part of human nature, but I believe that it is simply a product of the system we live under, rather than some immutable characteristic that all humans are born with. In his book, Marx: A Beginner's Guide, I believe Andrew Collier sums it up very nicely: "Those who say that Marx ignores human nature usually mean by ‘human nature’ egoism, selfishness. Marx does not deny that in existing capitalist society people tend to be narrowly egoistic… To look at people in capitalist society and conclude that human nature is egoism is like looking at people in a factory where pollution is destroying their lungs and saying that it is human nature to cough."

    When selfishness is the way to get by in the world, it only makes sense that people are going to think of themselves before others. Capitalism teaches us that sometimes it is, in fact, necessary to boost yourself up the social rank by any available means, even at the expense of the lower classes below you. But let us remember that humans are also, by nature, social animals. Given that, would in not make sense that, if raised in a different environment -- say a Marxist state in which people work for the betterment of the community according to their abilities and, in turn, receive resources based on their need -- people might instead learn to be more compassionate, tolerant, and peaceful?
     
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